can y'all get around to modding my posts through quicker please

Discussion in 'That's So Meta!' started by townghost, Oct 30, 2019.

  1. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    ... I have no recollection of saying that TG "hates transmen".

    And to clarify: I don't think any of this is even reframing, let alone hyperbole, it's just actual literal quotes of things he's said. He is suggesting that when he says people deserve to be raped, the actual meaning is that no one deserves to be raped, but it's really not practical for me to guess at that kind of meaning from the words given.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
  2. Lizardlicks

    Lizardlicks Friendly Neighborhood Lizard

    FUCK apologies, that was in Rigel's post, not yours.
    Though admittedly these could also be in the wiggler.
  3. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    I can source more inappropriate/aggressive/accusatory sex stuff if people want, like I know for SURE he accused seebs of identifying with predators, but hey, let's go with an excerpt of a post from this morning:

    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    • Witnessed x 7
  4. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    It's amazing how much DARVO is happening. I don't know if it's intentional or not but it feels bad, man.

    This user has made me feel uncomfortable by using sexualized language to describe my actions. This user has now gone on to accuse me of "acting HELLA like a rapist" in a now wiggled post. It's ridiculous and triggering and gross. This is exactly why I haven't been around much, and that is not hyperbolic in the least.
    • Witnessed x 12
    • Agree x 1
  5. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    Also, this 'did it really happen tho' kind of thing is why I've put in some significant legwork to be able to reference the history as quickly and thoroughly as possible. I haven't covered it ALL, because there is a lot of ground to cover, but I could get quotes on that seebs thing in just a few minutes.

    I wasn't really expecting the history to become relevant from this angle, which does kinda suck to experience. I don't really want this to become a 'prove you were sufficiently sexually harassed' thing, so I'm not currently planning to get more quotes past this morning's post, but that's where things stand.
    • Witnessed x 6
    • Agree x 1
    • Useful x 1
  6. bushwah

    bushwah a known rule consequentialist

    Example from my own experience:

    I've been pretty directly coerced into accessing a website, although admittedly it was to show me porn and that motivation doesn't make sense here.

    A more likely scenario in context:

    If someone on this site is, say, threatening to kill themself if townghost doesn't stay online here all the time, imo he'd be very justified in saying "I'm being abused here, it's not that simple to just leave."

    I agree, self-harm is different, and addressing it differently makes sense, and bringing up the possibility that these actions could be (or is likely to be) self-harm also makes sense. I just -- don't like the idea of telling someone that a self-destructive action they're taking is definitely internally motivated and needs to be addressed as coming from internal motivations. It feels like denial of lived experience.

    Although it feels off to specify Lizardlicks is projecting motivations on townghost without also pointing out that townghost has projected motivations on people on multiple occasions in this thread, and I'm no more cool with that than I am with what Lizardlicks said.

    To jacktrash:

    To whoever was saying the thing that got paraphrased (?) as "here's stuff you did, here's what it means":

    To Chiomi:

    so. it's not like this is all going one way. and I don't like when anyone does it.
  7. jacktrash

    jacktrash spherical sockbox

    for the record i should state that the reason i've hardly been on the forum at all lately is NOT mostly because i'm avoiding the 'mod queue is full of angry and upsettingly sexual lvkz spam again' situation. i am perfectly capable of avoiding the queue without avoiding the site, because i am a lazy jerk who leaves more work for other people. :P mostly i've been avoiding any text format longer than twitter because we've been changing around my pain meds and my hands are so inflamed it hurts to type.

    that said, these extremely unpleasant posts, happening in vast numbers and in rapid succession, are pretty much operant conditioning training mods to avoid the queue. @townghost , yours are not the only posts going through slower than they could. other people's modded posts end up delayed as well. because, surprise! we're human beings! with feelings! we don't like getting told we're sadistic creepoids who are trying to abuse you! especially when we're trying to help!

    i try hard not to tell people to leave unless being here is hurting them, and this is NOT a threat to ban you or anything like that -- it's just that, dude, if being here makes you feel that way, maybe it's not good for you to be here.

    seriously. one fragile human animal to another. if it feels that bad, don't do it.
    • Agree x 2
    • Like x 1
  8. Lizardlicks

    Lizardlicks Friendly Neighborhood Lizard

    Sorry I didn't mean to come off as projecting motivations. Just that TGs behavior hasn't indicated anything other than being here under his own free will, even talked in one post about asking his therapist if he should leave (to which the therapist gave an unhelpful wishy-washy non-answer). At that point he hadn't built up animosity toward mods for being on post mod, but now it's getting to the point where TG interacting with the mods is being actively hurtful and exhaustive for everyone involved.

    If the answer to "should I leave" was shrug emoji before, I think it's gotten to the point of "strongly consider it" now.

    If someone is threatening through coercion by holding themself hostage that's shitty, but it's also not TG's responsibility. Not to imply it's an easy thing to walk away from, but ultimately that every individual involved is responsible for themselves and TG shouldn't be held to be accountable for someone else's personal safety by being expected to sacrifice his own.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
  9. bushwah

    bushwah a known rule consequentialist

    that is fair. I will admit I have a kneejerk reaction to that phrase "nobody's making you" that may not be entirely warranted in context

    No, no, I meant the opposite -- if somebody here was abusing townghost like that, using abusive tactics to make him stay, the abuser would be partially responsible for townghost's actions. It's not that townghost would be responsible for the abuser; it's that if there are abusive attempts to keep townghost here, that complicates the process of figuring out whether and how he's going to leave.

    Which, I agree with jacktrash, should be up to him, and by his autonomy; other people can only give information and advice.
    • Agree x 1
  10. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    For the record, I've also remembered that I wasted my last Halloween juggling greallan/athol, who sexually harassed the mods, threatened to send me videos of her self-harm, fantasized about me killing myself, was pretty clearly being hurt by her participation here, and... insisted that she absolutely positively wouldn't leave the site.

    I've been helping with the queue even though it's been a drain because I've had the energy and time to spare, but I'm frankly not that thrilled that i just spent a chunk of another holiday indexing the most aggressive and/or sexual things lvkz has said to people (the wiggled content), since it suddenly became much more likely I'd need to be able to put my hands on that information.
    • Witnessed x 21
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  11. Lizardlicks

    Lizardlicks Friendly Neighborhood Lizard

    Okay yaaaay same page get!
    Yah I just don't want to see a repeat of everyone getting stressed and hurt when, from my perspective, it seems as if everyone is being honest and aproaching in good faith, it's simply a matter of TG's trauma+psychosis combo means effective communication just can't happen rn. It's at best frustrating and at worst triggering and retraumatizing for several individuals.
    • Agree x 1
  12. rigel

    rigel youve got teeth for a reason, dont you?

    so... thats an interesting thing to bring up in a thread where townghost has repeatedly said hes being abused by the mod team.

    because, given context, youre implying that someone on the mod team, if not the whole team, is holding themself hostage behind closed doors and forcing townghost to stay on the site, or its the entire mod team in on this. its not just any random person hes pointing fingers at here.

    so... are you throwing this out there as a hypothetical, or do you feel theres reason to think this is true? because thats a pretty serious thing to imply.

    edited to add a few words
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    • Like x 1
  13. bushwah

    bushwah a known rule consequentialist

    this is several levels of hypothetical, starting with me being uncomfortable with the idiom "nobody's making you." I was trying to ask people to respect the possibility that townghost could be being victimized, both generally (I always dislike that idiom, and this thread may have gotten a rant that's been brewing for a while) and in light of the fact that he has been making accusations of abuse which I thought shouldn't be summarily dismissed.

    that said, I'm not cosigning the accusations. I think "is townghost being abused by mods" is a question I'd have to have more information from townghost to properly analyze. from what I've read of townghost's posts so far, I remember accusations of stuff like silencing, discrimination, lying, manipulation, dehumanization, and mocking trans people, and I don't remember him taking a specific quote or description of a specific event and framing it such that I could parse it as convincing evidence of a kintsugi mod using abuse tactics against him. so -- I would say from my perspective the accusations aren't yet substantiated, because I haven't seen the sort of evidence that would get me to say "I think this happened."

    I also know that Chiomi has accused townghost of acting abusively toward them by repeatedly showing them sexual content that they had expressed discomfort with. I believe the appropriate thing for townghost to do here is restrict his interactions with Chiomi to the types of interaction that Chiomi consents to, starting with removing sexually charged terms on request. all people have the responsibility to recognize and address abusive behavior in themselves, and that includes respecting boundaries.

    (to be clear, abusive behavior does not require wanting to harm or control someone. it's about whether the tactics a person uses are harmful, controlling tactics, tactics which can reasonably be predicted to cause harm or induce control. the person can use those tactics for any reason or no reason at all -- it's still abuse.)
    • Informative x 1
  14. bushwah

    bushwah a known rule consequentialist

    @townghost -- as an autonomous person, you have the absolute right for your boundaries to be respected, and I will defend that right. for the same reason, I will also defend that right in others. Chiomi has told you that they do not consent to receive certain terms and metaphors you are using to express your opinions (including "diapers," "submission," and "sadistic"). what are you going to say instead next time?
  15. prismaticvoid

    prismaticvoid Too Too Abstract

    ghost, I'm gonna make you the same offer I made Athol once upon a time: if you genuinely believe the mods are acting abusively towards you and/or withholding posts you think should go through, I am willing to look through your wiggled posts and give you a second opinion. no promises beyond that, but I will be honest in what I think of the stuff that isn't being let through.
    (eta: I know this is a thing that takes a lot of trust to do so no worries regardless but I figured I'd make the offer)
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    • Like x 3
  16. Re Allyssa

    Re Allyssa Sylph of Heart

    Not quite right - TG/lvkas has always been against being on post mod, but as Seebs said, he needs to be for the safety of the rest of the forum.

    (Edit: typos and changed wording bc on second read through it might've come out more aggressive than I intended)
    (New thought)
    Y'all haven't seen me in this mess except at the very beginning when lvkas first showed up.

    Considering how long I continued to try to talk to Athol, that should be surprising. I like debating/arguing with people. Or even trying to work through things and help people understand.

    The truth is that I really just can't handle going through the mod queue and dealing with his posts at all. As a result I've just been absent from kintsugi and feeling bad that I can't help out the rest of the team.

    I lost my point in there some where... I guess I just wanna say that this whole situation kinda sucks for everyone, mods and townghost both
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    • Witnessed x 8
  17. townghost

    townghost mystery crab

    so, that never happened, so now we’re rewriting history

  18. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    Okay, here's the trouble. I genuinely don't believe he's capable of making some kind of deal via mediation, and this is not a problem that's at all limited to Chiomi. I'm not happy with the stuff he's been exposing me to, but I've got a high tolerance for how much inappropriate stuff is too much. I'm not asking him to stop, but I'm also not willing to say I'm comfortable with the things he's said that I've had to deal with. I'm not going to concede that the things he's said are appropriate. Even if he stops addressing stuff to Chiomi, he's tossing this sort of stuff in the pile of things that mods as a group are supposed to deal with. Beldaran already said the thing about avoiding the site/mod queue because of stuff like this, and Jesse said the thing about the workload being exhausting, even just on the order of parsing out what is and isn't okay for public consumption. This is despite the way we aren't here to be the thought police, and he's had (for example) multiple terf threads despite none of the mod team being on board with teh things he says in them.

    So, back to this thread.

    This is the third time in the last week and a half that he's tried to make a thread to complain about his kintsugi experience.

    lvkz 1.jpg

    I'm not planning to quote much from the wiggler, but this is relevant here too. In that October 23 post, the title and text of the thread are more of the complete message. Let me just present that all to you with some further discussion.

    And let me discuss the mod interface for a minute. Before, I go any further, note that I'm not asking anybody on postmod to change the way they're doing things. But this is how mods are/have been exposed to lvkz/townghost content.

    If there's a post in the mod queue, all we get is a notification that there are posts in the queue. No warning on who posted them, what the content is, what forum it's going in, nothing. Everything is in the bbcode text, so spoiler cuts are only there as a visual [.spoiler] thing. I'm aware of the hazards of the interface, and when I open the queue I know what I might be getting into. But there has been so. much. rape talk. I'm not harmed by anything. But also, on a day when lvkz is posting, it's a toss-up whether I'm going to open up the queue and read about how he should be raped, might as well be raped, how other people deserve to be raped, how other people definitely think these folks totally deserve to be raped, etc., etc.

    Does he not mean these things? Any of the many, MANY times he's said it? Cool, I guess. Doesn't change much on my end. It's still my job to read his posts and think through 'hmmm. well, if he was venting about how he feels like he deserved to be raped, that would be one thing. but when he's talking addressing the community directly and implying they think he should go get raped, that might cross a line? but he's said similar things in the terf threads before that we approved. but i guess those are kind of a quarantine zone, and after you open one up, you probably know what kind of thing you're getting into. yeah, as a post in TSM without warnings or spoiler cuts, that should probably get wiggled. '

    I think I'm the mod who wiggled that post. I'm either that, or the mod who read it, closed the site because 'I'm too tired to tell whether this is the right decision or if my calibration is fucked up from the onslaught of similar content', and came back to see someone else had made the same call.

    So that's one corner of the issue. Just a part of the rape content. None of the other stuff. JUST rape. Some of it. Doesn't even touch on him calling other people rapists, etc., which has also been a thing that's come up.

    God, what comes to mind first. Well, I guess he didn't accuse Seebs of identifying with sexual predators quite like I remembered. He accused them of identifying with murderers, on the basis of sexual identity, which is so much better, I guess (eta: wait, no, it looks like it's both things? goddamn, this is a lot to sort through). He's commented on one mod's genitals. Twice. And recall that when he's said inappropriate things to other users and those posts get wiggled, those users are shielded from that content. Mods aren't. The mod in question was warned that that kind of content was waiting in the wiggler, but just because he wasn't able to attack them as directly as he wanted doesn't actually make it BETTER. He's said a lot about people wanting him to get raped. Directly told one mod to rape him. This is just a SKIM, because I don't really want to read this in depth!

    But, back to the central idea of the mediation/agreement. I don't think he understands, on a fundamental level, what is and isn't appropriate.

    It's a running theme. And I don't think he's very interested in listening to advice to help him calibrate either, because if he was, I would have been up to my elbows in it. It's exactly the kind of thing where I can't stay out and I'm impossible to shut up. I am all about helping people decode social nonsense. But, I have reread a lot of this history recently, most of the time I've tried to do that, I either got yelled at or occasionally he acknowledges that he was triggered (which I appreciate), but... nothing in the future really changes.

    Like, the first time he really came to my attention after his return to the forum. One of the first things he did was posted nsfw right to the profile box. He posted a toned down version after that was removed and he was warned, but it never felt like he understood what the problem was. It's been an issue. Not exclusively with sex stuff, I can think of at least one notable time when it really came up wrt suicide, but there is a LOT of this noncomprehension when it comes to sex things. He might not mean the rape stuff, but he still tosses it around as casually as breathing. He tried to post the thing about telling a mod to rape him to the 'laugh about your garbage brain' thread, which probably would have been approved, but... it was totally unspoilered and un-warned for. He still hasn't acknowledged that anyone has a point about how actually yes, the things he was saying have strong sexual connotations.

    And frequently, when someone challenges him about like, the meaning of words, it goes super badly and ends either without him acknowledging other people had a point, or sometimes... I guess changing his mind without telling anybody he did that (see: 'the trans woman front'). Now, does that taste like trauma? It sure does! I am very sympathetic to how hard abuse and other trauma can make it to deal with things like this. This doesn't feel like deliberate malice. Anyone who was around for athol or wants to slog through that tchgb thread can see that I am being a hell of a lot more patient than I was with her. Lvkz is pretty clear on his good days that he wants to make the world a safer, happier place, and I can tell when he's lashing out because he's triggered versus tripping over harmful things without meaning to cause harm.

    But he still is very unwilling to acknowledge that he's accidentally done things that are out of line, he gets set off when people try to tell him that things are out of line, he's got lots of very personal definitions for miscellaneous words and concepts that don't match with common perception, and overall, I don't honestly get the impression that he has a great grasp of what is and isn't nsfw. Just for starters.

    It's not like mods are unwilling to work with someone who's trying to improve. But I don't think some kind of agreement like this can even get off the ground, because he's treating all the mods in inappropriate ways, which some people are more willing to deal with than others, and history makes me really doubt that he's even going to admit that there could be anything sexual about mods being ~sadists~ who crave his ~submission~, it's just a whole mod team of dirty, dirty kinksters reading sex into these 200% nonsexual situations. Which means... if he agreed to anything, at this point, I think it would just be by rote, and not because of any actual understanding of what the real problem is.
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    • Informative x 5
    • Agree x 2
  19. Gyro Zeppeli

    Gyro Zeppeli Pseudo Anti Cult Leader

    • Agree x 3
  20. townghost

    townghost mystery crab

    i’m... genuinely not into bdsm. idk what else to say o the matter. i hate kink and think it’s ritualized abuse. i would never participate in bdsm
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