i done fucked up (suicide tw)

Discussion in 'General Advice' started by sicklyprince, Oct 13, 2015.

  1. EulersBidentity

    EulersBidentity e^i*[bi] + 1

    Not "liking" that at your friend being pissed or your anxiety; "liking" it because it's a brave thing to do.
     
    • Like x 2
  2. WithAnH

    WithAnH Space nerd

    If how to put up the boundary is an issue, I would recommend being short, honest, and direct. Like this:

    [Friend], I care about you a lot, but I can't be the only person supporting you through this. I'm exhausted and it's taking a toll on my own mental and physical health. I'm not a professional and I can't give you the kind of help you need. I need to take a break. Please only contact me [frequency you feel is appropriate, like once a week, and maybe set a particular time for these contacts, like Sunday nights].

    Then stop talking. Don't negotiate. Stick to it. If she tries to contact you at other times, repeat the boundary ("Please save this for Sunday night. I can't talk right now."), and if she continues pushing, block her ("I am blocking you for [one week/two weeks/one month] because I need some space.").

    I agree with Lissiel that you should talk to her girlfriend before you do this. She may indeed try to harm herself when you step back. If this happens, it's important to keep the boundary up. Refer her again to professional help, but do not resume multiple-times-daily contact! You know it's not healthy for either of you.

    You're not being selfish. This is not your job. You are genuinely not able to provide the help she needs, and by leaning on you so hard, she's avoiding taking the steps she needs to take to get better and causing you harm in the process.

    Shitty metaphor time: there's a fire in her house and she isn't calling 911 and getting firefighters to come out. Instead, every time the flames get close to her, she calls you and asks you to come over with a bucket of water. And because you always do, she is able to continue not calling the fire department. Here's the thing, though. You can't put out the fire with your little bucket, only hold it back a little. And continuing to live in a house that's on fire (for her) and regularly go into a house that's on fire (for you) is dangerous for both of you. The only thing you can do that will help beyond the duration of this day or this hour's crisis is stop going into the burning house and get professionals involved.
     
    • Like x 9
  3. sicklyprince

    sicklyprince giant androgynous glam monster

    did the thing, very shaky and scared because i'm not used to doing things that i said i wouldn't do (i told her i wouldn't tell her girlfriend) or doing things that will very very likely make someone upset at me. but i don't know what else i can do.
     
    • Like x 4
  4. WithAnH

    WithAnH Space nerd

    Whoops, you posted while I was writing my post. You did good. *hugs if wanted*
     
    • Like x 2
  5. EulersBidentity

    EulersBidentity e^i*[bi] + 1

    I like this metaphor.
     
    • Like x 4
  6. sicklyprince

    sicklyprince giant androgynous glam monster

    ok, this is helpful and a thing i think i needed to hear. the farthest i've ever gotten with boundaries is 'i'm not a professional and can't give you the kind of help you need' but i'm so ridiculously easy to guilt and so scared of doing something wrong it always got followed up with 'but be damned if i won't TRY TO.' if i was at work or something when she messaged me and i didn't see the message til later i always apologized like 'i'm so sorry i wasn't there for you, i will be next time, i'm so so sorry' and basically apologizing over and over for not being there 24/7. which i could tell wasn't a good thing to be doing but. i like to have people relying on me. i like to feel like i'm good for something and wanted. but simultaneously this is totally unsustainable because i can't help her.

    i'm very not used to that boundaries thing. i don't think i've ever tried to set down something like that before in my life. i think the closest i got here was saying i wouldn't be on skype that night because i had a friend over, and then my tumblr dash was full of posts from her talking about how much she needed to talk to someone but no one was there for her. i didn't log onto skype, but i also didn't sleep because i felt so intensely guilty like i should have done something. i think i'm a little unsure on how to express 'i still want to interact with you and help you where i can, i just cannot support you all by myself when the shit you're dealing with is heavy as fuck' without it sounding like 'you can't talk to me about anything because you're bothering me and weighing me down and you're a terrible burden' which....is how i'd likely interpret it (although i hope to god i don't dump all my problems on a sole person and expect them to deal with it, i try to keep a balance of being honest if people i trust ask questions and not making everything their problem to fix.)


    i also like this metaphor, it's excellent.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
    • Like x 4
  7. sicklyprince

    sicklyprince giant androgynous glam monster

    reposting bc i worry it may have gotten lost in the huge block of my last reply. question: should i message her now to tell her i got in contact with her gf and why (that i'm scared for her safety) or just let her find out if her gf intervenes?
     
  8. Lissiel

    Lissiel Dreaming dead

    I would tell her up front, as part of your boundary setting. "What we're currently doing is actively bad for me and also actively bad for YOU, and because i care about you so much i have to step back. I'll be around (sundays from ten to two or whatever) but i cant help you with this stuff more often than that. Ive also told gf about your life being in immediate danger, trying to get you the real help you need."
     
    • Like x 3
  9. sicklyprince

    sicklyprince giant androgynous glam monster

    ok, i told her i messaged her gf again because i'm concerned for her safety. typing on phone sucks and i think she's asleep right now so i didnt say as much as i wanted to, but for right now i'm just going to step away and hope her gf intervenes.
     
    • Like x 2
  10. reiyel

    reiyel Active Member

    i think you did exactly the right thing.

    1) it signals to her very strongly that you're reaching the end of your rope,

    2) there is now someone in physical proximity who knows of the danger and who knows her adress who can send in help if she does try anything, you are not her last and only line of defense anymore!

    3) if she gets angry at you for trying to save both your mental health and her life, you will have space from her.

    it might be only until her rational mind comes back online and she figures out that forcing you to be the sole guardian of her deadly secret was a bit of an asshole thing to do, even though at the time she did not realize. (just because you don't know you're hurting someone, it doesn't mean the hurt has not happened or does not count. if she is a good person she will realize this. she might even feel really guilty over this so be sure to stress out that you were happy to do this for her, but unlike your love and friendship, your strength is finite, is all. it's not a matter of don't want to, it's a matter of can't.)

    it might be that she never figures that out and sulks off never to be heard from again, which will probably be hurtful to you because i'm sure you like her and you worked so hard to help her, but in the end if she is the kind of person who does that "oh i'm gonna kill myself maybe and i'm only telling YOU and you must fix me and shut up about it" deliberately instead of because she's scrambled and hurting enough to feel like it's the only way she can act, it's a good thing if she never comes back to you; it would mean that she would rather tie you to her using herself as a hostage and she's angry that you're not letting her anymore. that's toxic as fuck.

    but in my opinion if she gets help with her suicidal urges i'd be really surprised if she keeps feeling that your personal loyalty to her should include letting her kill herself because she wanted to at a time when her brain was fucking hardcore with her. even if she is hurt/betrayed/angry, she will get over it, AND there will be other things in place to help her should anything happen, and maybe having a face to face talk with someone about her suicidal urges will even nudge her toward getting professionl help! I see nothing but good results from here.

    at the point she is reaching, unless the "tell people" solution ends up with "indoctrinated family member kills her themselves" her depression is just plain lying to her to keep her in the hole. family members won't get it and might be horrible about it? okay that really sucks but they'll have her whole life to get it, or to get over not getting it, or to get over not having her in their life because she had the energy to cut them the fuck off. no one can do anything and it's gonna be a waste of time and hope? hey it might be true but who told you it was a 100% sure thing, OH RIGHT, THE PART OF YOUR BRAIN THAT WANTS YOU TO KILL YOURSELF, don't you think it is MAYBE not playing fair and unbiased observer there.

    don't get overinvested in holding up promises made to the part of her brain that wants to keep her in the hole. it is a traitor and has neither your or her best interests in mind.
     
    • Like x 4
  11. sicklyprince

    sicklyprince giant androgynous glam monster

    i will respond more thoroughly when i'm not stuck typing on a phone, but for right now i want to thank everyone who's responded to this thread, your advice is good and i love all of you :'>
     
    • Like x 2
  12. WithAnH

    WithAnH Space nerd

    I think you could probably say that, actually. That seems like a pretty succinct summary and it's better than what I wrote. Mine was more like the Brick Wall Boundary that would make sense to deploy if you had a conversation about how you can't keep up the 24/7 availability and she continued to try to guilt or manipulate you into doing so anyway.
     
    • Like x 1
  13. sicklyprince

    sicklyprince giant androgynous glam monster

    ok, i am home from work and back on a functional keyboard, time for updates.

    first off, i got a few pings about this on skype/tumblr. i responded to skype once, and then held off on answering anything else until now. still haven't answered, trying to figure out the best direction to go.

    so, for the record, here's the message i sent to her gf.

    oops, me again, sorry. so...this is probably going to sound weird but would it be possible for you to talk to (name redacted)'s parents or, anyone who can intervene? i haven't gotten the impression that she's in immediate danger but i've gotten some really concerning messages from her recently and i'm worried that if someone doesn't intervene something awful could happen in the future. i'm sorry to drag you into it but i can't do a lot from another country. [1/2]
    i can give you more details if you'd like, the basics is that she's been expressing a lot of very active suicidal thoughts for awhile and she currently has access to a method, and i don't want that to happen, i'm really scared for her. i think her family isn't great about this stuff but i mean even if they can't be involved i would want her to go to the hospital or something because i'm really scared for her safety. [2/2]

    promptly after sending this i wish i had done a few things differently. i feel super iffy about saying 'no immediate danger' because sure, she wasn't expressing any suicidal thoughts right that moment but i've seen that flip pretty quickly. also feeling weird about the part regarding her family, because i feel like it's...pretty much inevitable that they're going to get involved at some point? wow, i am not good at this.

    gf responded just a few hours ago:

    Yes that’ll be very helpful, like, a LOT. I’ve noticed she’s recently having a lot of suicidal thoughts as well, though she told me not to think much about it butGODDAMN I’M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT HER ALL THE TIME. This isn’t healthy for her, and as much as she wants me to not worry this is STILL p much a very bad thing that’s going on and i’ll do what it takes to make sure she’s okay. Also yeah she sorta has a family problem going on for a long time.

    gf is obviously worried; i know my friend has been putting forth effort to try to open up to her for awhile, and it sounds like the fact that she's suicidal came up.

    so, now for actual conversations with friend. this took place over a span of hours today and i was typing on my phone the whole time.

    me: hey so
    me: youre probably gonna be mad
    me: but i did message your gf again saying im scared for you
    me: even if youre not actively suicidal right this second, youve been suicidal pretty frequently and you currently have access to a method
    me: i said i wouldnt message your gf as long as you were safe
    me: i dont believe you are safe, you are really highly at risk, and there is nothing i can do directly about that from across the internet
    me: but the way things are now you are not safe so something has to change

    friend: mix w hy
    friend: mix i hope you are aware that my girlfriend is the last person ill be telling about any suicidal intent
    friend: and if you're going to tell her im going to have to reconsider telling you too
    friend: Not because of me but because i don't want her involved in any of this
    i don't want her to be involved with this shit and if it requires me having to make some precautions to ensure you and her never communicate ill do it
    friend: Have a safe day mix

    me: i told you why: because im worried. youre actively suicidal, you have access to a method, and the most i can do from here is talk to you, and someone needs to do more than that
    me: you told me youd message me if you were suicidal but what i got yesterday was essentially a suicide note, and im super grateful you didnt go through with it
    me: but i cannot help you properly. i cant.
    me: i messaged your girlfriend because shes the only person i could think to message
    me: i'm sorry that you dont want her involved but she will be just as involved if you die. and then there wont be anything she or i or anyone else can do
    me: i cant control you so i cant choose whether or not you cut me off but i could not live with myself if i didnt do everything in my power to help you
    me: even if it means you dont want to talk to me anymore. if you hate me i can live with that. What i couldbt live with would be if you died and there was anything i could have done that might have helped no matter how slim the chance

    friend: what i sent you last night was supposed to be a message, which is why it started with "mix are you here?". i was sobbing and desperate and probably sounded more than a little hysterical, but i genuinely was looking for someone to talk to but both the people i can talk to were at work. eventually i couldn't stand the wait and my emotions shut down and went vacant static and i just told you nvm and went to bed
    friend: i understand your good intent but i really can't accept you involving my girlfriend in this. specifically her. involve anyone else if you have to, my brother or my moirail ((url redacted) on tumblr) or literally anyone that isn't my parents or my girlfriend. i can't have her worrying about me, and i outright refuse to. i would sooner die than let her know when i want to die.
    friend: so yeah ill talk to you when i can afford to and when i can't ill promise that I'll wait. but for the love of God mix if there's one thing you can do for me is to go to my girlfriend, tell her it was a false alarm and tell her it's all fine now.
    Don't involve her.


    for reference, here's the messages i was talking about when i meant 'suicide note'. these are from yesterday and i wasn't online practically all day when she sent them, so i didn't see them until about 1:30 AM.




    friend: nn i=xmis
    friend: mix'
    friend: a reyou here
    friend: m ix i wanna die
    friend: mi xim tired m soot ired i fcuekdd up i told my giflrined how ive eebn feelign and made her cr y
    friend: im shit im stupid im done i dont dersver her i dont deserve any t hh gng
    friend: i foudn mydads diazepam pills
    friend: its oky
    friend: um, um
    friend: be safe
    friend: dnot tell my ggf bouttthis
    friend: thanks
    friend: be safe
    friend: godbelss
    friend: <333
    friend: 333333333333333

    when i messaged her after i saw these, she said 'almost killed myself nbd' and wouldn't talk more about it, just told me she still had the pills with her and that she wouldn't throw them away because she 'needed them'. also, this.

    friend: diazepam helps with anxiety
    friend: It'll either help me or give me seizures but ill count my risks

    so i've been holding off on what to do because i'm not sure what to do to reduce harm the most. what i'm thinking is that someone needs to take her to the hospital (if she won't volunteer to go herself, and i've asked her to go several times and she always refuses) and get someone from there to talk to her parents and express that her getting help is absolutely vital, no it's not optional, yes she really does need it. i don't see any way for her to get serious help without her parents being involved somehow. but i'm not sure how all this works or if it works differently because different country.

    i'm also not sure if i should continue messaging her gf or message the other person she mentioned instead. i think her worry is that she will hurt or scare her girlfriend because she's not really dealt with mental illness herself, but i'm fairly sure her gf cares and wants to help, she's just not sure how to go about helping and not sure of how deep it runs. not sure if her moirail is aware of how frequent and intense the suicidal urges are either, because i would have thought she'd have intervened by now if she knew. i don't have any info to contact her parents or brother, but i am wondering if her older brother might be a good person to go to. he's not the most sensitive about brain stuff but my impression of both her parents from what she's told me is 'abusive manipulative jerks' whereas her brother at least tries to be kind to her.

    also i think i need to clarify to her that i'm not looking for someone to message when she posts suicide-related things and then vanishes, which is why i messaged her gf the first time. i'm looking for someone, anyone, who can intervene and help her in any way possible. also clarify that i'm not trying to hurt her and i'm not angry, i'm worried my messages came off brusque and angry because phone typing.
     
    • Like x 2
  14. sicklyprince

    sicklyprince giant androgynous glam monster

    i have responded to friend, avoided mentioning talking to the gf as much as possible (only said i would have talked to her moirail instead if i'd known them.) explained that i'm not angry or upset and that i very much do still want to listen and help her, i just cannot do that alone.

    currently talking to her gf. she definitely had no idea how intense the suicidal thoughts were. she's said it's definitely best to keep the parents uninvolved (i'm trying to figure out what risks they pose to her. gf says she's not sure, but thinks likely outcomes are them cutting off internet/phone/any access to anyone outside their family so she'd have no way to communicate even if there was an immediate threat, or possibly physically harming her.) also said that yes, brother seems a lot more decent and might be a person who could help in a crisis. which is good, i'm going to consider that progress, because at least there's someone very close to her not intent on harming her. gf is going to talk to her and try to stay as calm as possible while doing so, try to make it clear that she cares and wants to help and that knowing something is wrong but not being told what it is is equally scary compared to knowing what's going on.
     
    • Like x 3
  15. WithAnH

    WithAnH Space nerd

    It sounds like you did a really good job. I'm proud of you!
     
    • Like x 2
  16. reiyel

    reiyel Active Member

    wow okay cutting off all her support networks when she's in a crisis might count as her parents being a physical danger to her. argh. at least there's girlfriend and brother, so even if that happened she wouldn't be utterly alone, but it's... yeah, not awesome.

    you have been doing and saying the right things. *hugs*

    and i don't think you need telling but do NOT promise you won't tell her girlfriend anything anymore, or that you will LIE to her girlfriend and tell her false alarm and enable her attempts to hide problems that will soon blow up in everyone's faces. Just avoid the topic as much as possible, like you've been doing. and if you have to promise to keep her from doing something right this instant, remember that you're talking to her traitor suicide brain, who is TRYING to get her killed. it is holding hostages. you do not deal fairly with terrorists. they have betrayed you first.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2015
    • Like x 1
  17. sicklyprince

    sicklyprince giant androgynous glam monster

    yeah, i'm not going to promise her that i won't talk to her girlfriend or tell her it was a false alarm (unless it's an emergency and i have to lie, which...euughh, i feel so gross about, but all of this has been stressful already and i've been trying my best to stay calm.)

    friend is placing a lot of emphasis on the fact that what she's upset over is the fact that i talked to her girlfriend. not sure how much longer i'm going to keep avoiding that issue, and i'm not sure when her girlfriend's going to talk to her and how that will affect things. she said her other friend she mentioned lives closer by and would be easier to go to in a crisis, but revealed that yeah she hasn't really informed that friend how intense things are.

    thanks again to everyone for responding and for continuing to confirm i'm doing the right thing because hooboy i am questioning it every five minutes or so.
     
  18. Lissiel

    Lissiel Dreaming dead

    That is really really no-question-at-all the rught thing to have done. She needs real medical care. And honestly, someone who a) has a suicide plan they flip back to frequently and b) has the means to carry that plan out IS in immediate physical danger already. Like. This is pretty much in baker act territory, or whatever the equivalent is for her country, if she wont/cant seek help on her own.
     
    • Like x 2
  19. Secret Squirrel

    Secret Squirrel certainly something

    If she keeps on about how upset she is you told her girlfriend and you feel like you need to respond, I would say to emphasize that it was the only thing you could think to do that would help her, which is true to my understanding? Like, I assume the gf is an adult, there's not really a good reason to not tell her unless the gf herself sucks, which doesn't seem to be the case. As I understand, it's not like you had a big list of people to choose who to tell and picked the one that would be the most upsetting, you picked the person you knew would be most likely able to help.

    Also, ftr, it's pretty messed up to say "I would rather just die than have my gf knowing I wanted to die". I sympathize with that, like I really get where that's coming from, but you can't say that and then try to act like you're not telling your S.O. about your brain problems for their benefit. Saying that is saying you would rather not exist than exist in that state, regardless of how your S.O. would feel about it. I'm not sure if that's what she's doing, idk, but I wanted to point that out.
     
    • Like x 4
  20. Emma

    Emma Your resident resident

    That makes no logical sense though (probably because of the depression) because if she would die by suicide, wouldn't that then let her girlfriend know that she wanted to die?

    In any case, I totally agree with telling the girlfriend. And I definitely agree with @Lissiel. People who have plans, and have the means to execute those plans when they want are a danger to themselves. If someone would have said that to me during an intake conversation (and suicide is explicitly asked about!) I would have recommended to the psychiatrist that we should convince them to stay. What I'm saying is that I think your friend is currently a sufficient danger to herself enough to be committed, possibly even involuntarily.

    I hope she's able to get the help she needs. Do remember to take care of yourself as well though. You know, that whole thing about putting on your own oxygen mask first and everything. And also remember that what ever she does, it is not and it will never be your fault!
     
    • Like x 5
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