Discussion in 'That's So Meta!' started by versi2, Oct 18, 2017.
I'm sorry it came across that way.
yes, you don't forget about it, but that doesn't mean that everyone else in the thread remembers or even knows that it happened. and it doesn't mean it's the first thing they think of when a mod says that modding makes them unpopular, even if they do remember the mod saying that.
It's OK, UA, I've apologised, you don't need to defend me :)
I see at least three users in the last two pages who have problems with it, whether they've talked to you about it at length or not.
I didn't mean it the way it was taken and I'm sorry that it hurt people.
That said, I don't think I meant it in quite the way you took it either. I've gotten a lot of verbal abuse and at least one stalker out of moderating RPs and fannish communities, but I wasn't really thinking about THAT level of harassment when I tried to make a bad joke of it.
Not exactly. Read what I wrote.
you were thinking about some harassment, but not as much as they were thinking about?
I don't think anyone should be harassed EVER. I think a certain amount of grumpy complaining comes with the territory. At the same time I do kinda know that any time you stick your neck out someone's gonna try to behead you, because people kind of suck a lot sometimes, so I shouldn't have said it.
The word "significant" was, as it happens, significant. Everyone has some amount of difficulty with the impossible vagueness of the thing, just read people trying to figure out what Patreon's rules mean, or something. But for the most part, people can handle "use your judgment and don't worry if we occasionally ask you to spoiler stuff or whatever because it's all sort of approximate" as a working rule. It's not a moral judgment, no one's saying that the posts in question are Evil or whatever, just sometimes we want to move stuff.
I do want to point out: We are pretty reluctant to identify specifically who complained, or how many people complained, about a specific post, because we have had a number of users report that, after they expressed a concern, they felt they were being targetted for vagueposting or criticism, sometimes months later. So we're pretty strongly inclined to keep that information private and discuss what the concerns are, not who raised them (or whether it was a mod or a non-mod, or multiple people or just one, or anything else) because we do not want people to feel that they will face retaliation for reporting things or expressing concerns.
EDIT: For clarification, that problem is in no way specific to any one user, we've had those complaints about a number of people's responses to their beliefs about who had reported them.
i think i get it now. :D
I think it's real telling when someone expresses concern of ruining their relationships by being a mod (which, by the way, fucking great on spock for taking on that responsibility) and you're immediate response is to tell them they signed up for it :T
I think it's probably safe to assume that there might be a non-zero number of people who have significant issues with the way NSFW is currently being handled, other than the ones who have actually said anything. I'd be willing to bet that the number is bigger than you think it is, and also that it's smaller than I think it is, because subjectivity is a thing.
It also really bothers me that someone spoilered a post as "NSFW" ostensibly because it contained the word "slutty" used in a humorous context--there might have been another reason but I sure's hell can't figure out what it is.
I never thought that was a specific user issue, and I don't think that's a bad policy. It was the whole conflict resolution part of it all. *shrugs*
Maybe spoilering the word slutty is overkill, but it's also hardly a significant imposition on anyone and as far as I can tell no one is being asked to do it.
I have been working in the boundary thread on workshopping a definition of NSFW that can be agreed upon as the baseline for the community. If you look in that thread and find you don't agree with it, please consider offering your thoughts.
Basically as I think on it:
- mentioning a thing occurred: generally fine.
- going into detail on the thing: nsfw, use a spoiler. And yes, that includes for violent context too.
There's been a lot of discussion and I'm just gonna take this opportunity to wave people over toward the boundary thread https://kintsugi.seebs.net/threads/...orce-interpersonally-on-the-forum-level.6443/
to help workshop definitions that are accessible, reasonable, and ensure that people feel safe.
however, that said: I have been taking a self care break and honestly would prefer if one of the mods could remake the thread or take custody of it away from me with what we have so far, because I can't guarantee speedy changes to the op atm.
For anyone who wants to contribute to the boundary thread: please try to be polite / not inflammatory if at all possible. So far discussion has been really calm and productive and the list has been proceeding well. Remember that in addition to the aside about defining NSFW, the threads purpose is to lay out for members a basic list of boundaries they deserve to have as human beings, as some of us come from backgrounds where we were told we couldn't have them/have skewed boundaries. That's okay - if you notice you have done things that would violate the listed boundaries, take some time to think about it. There's more info in the thread.
Haven't been here that long, but the only post I've ever seen, for example, forcibly spoilered by the mods was one that, unspoilered, could have caused someone to commit suicide.
Everything else is voluntary, and, while I won't pretend that pressure to conform to social norms, whatever they may be, has no effect, I can't say I understand why you're upset by this, because it sounds like caution on the part of the poster more than anything else.
Although it's voluntary, it bothers me to think that someone might think that was the standard, or feel that they needed to be that careful for whatever reason. *shrug*
So, I'm not old enough to remember when people referred to table legs as "limbs" but I did grow up in the Bible Belt in the late 70s-early 80s.
When I look at that old "people really do cuss on Kintsugi" thread and then the current state of the Out of Context Thread, I feel a painful degree of cognitive dissonance. YMMV and obviously does.
Even if the mods have that strict cutoff line for 'anything past this point must be spoilered', I can't see any situation where we'd tell a user to stop using nsfw tags on their own personal posts. If it makes you uncomfortable to see them doing it, I'll sorry, that's not pleasant to experience, but I really can't think of any situation where it would be appropriate for us to ask them to stop (short of them telling other people to use the exact same standards, which isn't something I've seen).
'Slutty' may have been spoilered because some people have bad history with that word as a sexual descriptor, and it's a word I see some people tag as a slur on tumblr. If OP has bad history with the word, it's going to feel more sexually loaded to them than the average person. It's probably going to feel more nsfw then a clinical description of 'someone who likes having lots of sex'. I can see someone tagging nsfw for something they see as a sexual slur. Maybe someone on here they care about he's bad history with the word, and they have a cut to be sure that person is braced for sex stuff instead of it showing up out of the blue. If the word is being used in a personal way, most people have a much earlier cutoff for where personal sex stuff feels nsfw than they do for like, fictional characters or abstract discussion. Or it's potentially the only way this person feels comfortable discussing the thing on a site with a number of minors, some of whom have expressed that they're uncomfortable with the unspoilered sex stuff they've run into. Or this could be a person who's struggled with boundaries and consent before and is making an extra effort to be sure they don't step on someone's boundaries.
Without knowing any specifics, I can see a number of very understandable explanations for why this could happen. And as long as this person isn't pressuring other people to stick to the same standards, I can't think of any explanation where it would be at all appropriate for me to tell them that they're doing things wrong and they really do need to be more openly explicit before they put spoiler cuts in... their own text. I don't know what would be expected from me here, in terms of being a mod. It really doesn't seem something workable to tell people to stop tagging their own words nsfw, even if not everyone agrees with that same standard.
I feel the need to say that, if you have the particular brainbugs that make you feel morally unclean when being asked to spoiler or getting wiggled (brainbugs i sympathize with) that it's absolutely nobody's problem but your own. (Or, more crudely: sounds like a personal problem).
The point of asking for clearer guidelines is not to define everything, ever, that should be spoilered or could be wiggled, it's to get a clearly painted starting line that it's not hard for anyone to make the jump from "if this should be spoilered, then this should be too". Obviously for some people it'll be hard still, but that just comes with the territory of trying to paint clear guidelines on a forum where nothing is explicitly outlawed.
Erring on the side of caution with NSFW and 18+ content on a forum where minors, often sexually abused ones, frequent is not a judgement call or breeding a sex negative culture, it's keeping young people and even adults with boundary issues safe from those who might being them harm, regardless if those dangerous people are on this forum or not.
That person could have spoilered the word 'slutty' for any reason, but also remember it is an insult oft directed at women who arent dressed "modestly" and it has potential to trigger someone with that context behind it, OP's intentions or not. I don't think it is appropriate or fair to speculate on OP's motivations for spoilering it while simultaneously judging it for being somehow wrong and for OP somehow being a victim of the koolaid.
eta: also, no one is advocating for 18+ content to be outlawed, just that it be moved appropriately or spoilered when not in an explicitly 18+ area, so I'm not sure why there is language of "I need to be told what level of nsfw isnt allowed" is coming from. its not disallowed, it never has been
Kintsugi is based on the premise that nothing anyone can do or say makes it okay to treat them like trash. By logging in, you affirm that you understand this to be the foundational premise of the community. More on our community philosophy here.
Separate names with a comma.