Not sure where else to put this.

Discussion in 'Brainbent' started by local troublemaker, Feb 6, 2017.

  1. local troublemaker

    local troublemaker professional tumblrina

    Depends. Would I peruse through youtube comments screaming that JonTron is a neonazi? No. That'd be pointless, unproductive and frustrating. If a friend mentioned liking JonTron to me, I would probably bring up his support of the alt-right and ask if they're aware of that. Further discussion depends on their response to that, whether they're aware or not and their comfort level regarding supporting him now that they know. If their response comes down to "yeah, but he's funny and I'm still going to give him my support," chances are that person is going to have a lot less of my trust, because I do think supporting an outspoken white nationalist is wrong, and what I'm hearing from them is that getting a good laugh is a higher priority to them than the safety and comfort of targeted minorities.

    Oh yes, misogyny absolutely plays into it.

    Various forms of noncon are just something i tend to see popping up a lot in 'slash' content; I'm using nonconsent broadly to cover things like coercion, child/adult, straight-up rape, corrective rape. Some issues I have with A/B/O are things you've mentioned is the portrayal of gay men as sex-driven and animalistic, and creating 'male/female' roles for them (I tend to see noncon pop up frequently in this type of verse as well, because the characters literally can't control themselves.)

    Depends on the blog, I think, and that's one place in which I think BYF pages can be helpful. Some blogs just say "don't interact" which I interpret as meaning don't follow, like, reblog, or message. Some just say "don't reblog". Some blogs will clarify that they're referring only to straight men, and some might just say 'men', which would include gay/bi men and trans men. Generally, I've found that if a post is relatable, there's an equivalent post somewhere on a blog for mlm, or hey, the new post button is always there.

    You're not textwalling, don't worry! Take your time with responses; I'll probably be taking my time as well (trying to make job interviews happen, wish me luck :P )

    Edit: For some reason Kintsugi has permanently inserted a quote into the middle of your text, splitting it into two blocks there at the end. I've tried to edit it three times. It won't edit.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
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  2. local troublemaker

    local troublemaker professional tumblrina


    Thanks HuffPost that'll be enough from you.
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  3. esotericPrognosticator

    esotericPrognosticator still really excited about kobolds tbqh

    okay, so a way I see some people "criticizing media" (quotes for different definition of term) is going around telling strangers/acquaintances or making general proclamations to the tune of "if you watch JonTron you're basically a Neonazi forever" without knowing whether the alleged Neonazis were aware that he supported the alt-right, didn't want to support him but still liked watching him, etc.—the kind of information you gather before making judgements of your friends. those kinds of blind accusations aren't justified or beneficial in any way, imo, nor would I say they're even "criticism" anymore (more like absolutist vitriol), but they're also the way some of the antis I see on, for instance, Seebs' blog interact with media they think are Problematic. so I might be Typical-Kintsugi-style opposed to that kind of media criticism, but I'm all for yours.
    to address a specific detail, though—that "yeah, but" response reads to me as anything from "highly conflicted, delivered with :c expression" to "very dismissive, delivered with smirk." where in that range of, as you called it, comfort level would someone have to fall before you trusted them significantly less?

    hmm, okay. so what I'm hearing here is that queer fetishization is incidental to noncon material? like, they correlate, and nonconsent stuff is more likely to contain queer fetishization than non-nonconsent stuff is, but noncon kink is not inherently the same as man-on-man/woman-on-woman kink. is that correct?
    my understanding, then, is that you think slash and A/B/O content is what's fetishizing queer people. we've covered A/B/O, and I definitely agree with you on that front, but what parts of slash do you think are fetishizing and why? (for that matter, what kinds of content would you classify as "slash"?)

    I think asking men/straight men not to reblog, like, or message is reasonable (liking perhaps less so) in the context of keeping a space involving women about women, so to speak. but re: following, my understanding of Tumblr (again, I am not and never was a user) is that following is the main way people read each others' blogs? if that's correct and following is roughly equivalent to reading, I'm not sure how I feel about that. what harm is a man doing if he reads (and only reads, not comments upon) wlw content? (not a rhetorical question, I'd like to know.)
    in the particular case I explained, actually I'm not sure if there would be an equivalent on mlm blogs, given the differences in expression of affection in (apparently) male and (apparently) female close friendships. the particular experience of having your straight best friend act in borderline romantic ways (for example, wanting to cuddle) with you is much more likely to occur in female friendships. thaaaaat's just nitpicking, though. :P

    oh, and good luck with your job interviews!!
  4. local troublemaker

    local troublemaker professional tumblrina

    I wouldn't go around directly calling people neonazis over JonTron without so much as a conversation about whether they know he supports the alt-right, no. I think tumblr posts tend to be VERY hyperbolic in nature pretty frequently, so...a post might say "if you support JonTron you're a neonazi bye." I consider those posts to be pretty ineffective because they instantly set off defensiveness; I think a lot of them (although probably not quite all of them) are a sort of shorthand for "if you're aware JonTron supports the alt-right and you still give him your support, you're aligning yourself with neonazis." It's an ineffective and confrontational shorthand, but, internet. People communicate poorly on the internet.
    For me, essentially, if a friend were aware that JonTron supports the alt-right and continues to support him, I'm automatically going to distrust them. How they support him is going to make a difference; someone who says "So what, he's funny, and hey, I think he had some good points" is probably going to just get cut out of my life, whereas someone who is conflicted is....conflicted. They are at least, to some degree, listening and open to conversation, even if they aren't sure how to feel immediately.

    I mean, another kind of fetishization is...think peak 2011 yaoi fans, with people arguing over which boy in the gay couple at their school is the seme or uke, or people shipping irl celebrities together. So no, noncon isn't the only thing that delineates fetishization.
    I used 'slash' because it's...what I think of as an outdated fanfic term like lemon, from the times when people would put warnings for GAY, BOYxBOY/GIRLxGIRL, DON'T LIKE DON'T READ in their summaries. Lots of fic centered around "gay people having sex because gay people having sex gets me off" written by straight people.

    They way I see it, if they ask to follow, don't follow. Again, not all blogs have as many restrictions, or any restrictions, on interaction, but some do.
    If it was an irl space dedicated exclusively to gay and bi women to discuss their experiences, and some guy walked in and just hung out in the corner, watching, even if he didn't participate in the conversation, chances are it'd still make some people pretty fucking uncomfortable. It's still going to be perceived as a line crossed and a boundary violated.
    If you're frustrated because your experience with relationships growing up as a trans person is different from that of a cis person, 1) you're far from alone in that, 2) equivalent spaces for mlm or trans men exist and I can pretty much guarantee there are others who have had similar experiences and can empathize.

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