i think we're all on the same page re: fatlogic, but we havent heard a peep from greallan, she's either busy or maybe postmod is filtering her stuff idk - might be worth waiting on her seeing some of this and responding, yknow?
This is pretty much a lot of stuff I agree with, and even fatlogistians could agree with some of it from what I could see. When I was talking about eating disorders in that one instance, I was talking mainly about anorexia (and related) being triggered by dieting.(1) As an aside, orthorexia is complicated. I was trying to act like an orthorexic at one point, but that takes a lot of spoons. Once it goes into compulsion mode, it has to suck. I think that fatlogic does acknowledge that overweight people have a higher TDEE. One of their debunks was that if weight-loss stalls before you reach chart-weight, it's because you're not at deficit anymore. The rest goes into the whole chart-love debate. I think that mostly BMI is a number that indicates a closer look at other factors, but really that skips a part of the population, so it's pretty much useless for a lot of things. (1) A little off your point and on to someone else's, I think there was a story about being annoyed at a nutritionist because she was against calorie counting. I will buy that some people just cannot do intuitive eating for whatever reason. I also get the middle ground between doctors dismissing just based on weight and doctors being afraid to talk about weight when it might be an issue.
Darn lack of edit button: To add to the response @palindromordnilap... You're not going to gain weight while starving to the point where organs are wasting away. What they're more talking about with violating the laws of physics is that if someone claims to be eating below TDEE and still gaining weight, there must be something wrong with the numbers. (The implication is that they're not keeping accurate count, their TDEE is absurdly low, or something is really weird.) I'm not on fatlogic anymore, but one of the conversations leaked to fatpeople stories. (I consider reading those about on the same level as talesfromretail.) I was using Stacy from Nerdfitness in an argument, and while I couldn't find her height anywhere, she was gaining as she built muscle. (I'm not interested in numbers related to proper lifting, but it would be nice to be able to carry a full glass carboy((5 gallons)) across the house without doubting my ability to.)
you aren't going to gain weight, but you are going to gain fatty tissue, so it'll look like you're gaining weight
Are... Are those calories? That's, uh... The amount people tell me to force myself to eat to avoid irreversible damage to my body when I can't handle food, and that still wouldn't be enough if I had more muscle mass. I still end up not being able to move much or take heavy cognitive loads, so the total daily energy expenditure (that's what TDEE stands for, for those who didn't know) is drastically lowered. Which is far from ideal. Anorexia being triggered by dieting or people pushing diets is, like... The whole thing about anorexia. It does seem to have other components, but the cultural one is really obvious in research. I'm willing to believe it's relatively uncommon, but: Orthorexia is definitely something to be taken seriously - it can really mess people up. More importantly, it isn't something to emulate, and I'll honestly say this is kinda concerning. Are you sure this sort of stuff is healthy for you? Okay, calorie counting, however, is really likely to mess you up on the mental health side of things. Seriously, I try to do it the other way, and it's still causing anxiety, and probably compulsions if I, uh, had the spoons to care about not starving I guess. Re: the whole TDEE thing, that idea of "you can't gain weight if you're putting more calories out than in" is... A bit flawed. An obvious example of it being clearly wrong is water retention - water has no calories, but it has weight and volume. That's not that common, though. However, there's another issue: are you sure the people who say that are actually at a calorie deficit? Look at the beginning of this post again: significantly reducing calorie intake greatly decreases activity across the board, and thus energy expenses. There's a tendency, even among medical professionals, to significantly overestimate energy expenditure for extremely sedentary people - a relatively common example is coma patients gaining weight.
I'm going to be completely honest, I have never met a doctor that was "afraid to talk about weight when it might be an issue". I've met doctors that agree that weight is not the contributing factor in a medical issue, and I've met doctors that think that everything from appendicitis to a broken spine are clearly just due to overeating, but I've never met a doctor who went 'oh no! this is a Health Condition directly linked to weight, but my patient may feel hurt if I bring up their weight! ah, well, I suppose I will not address it at all, then.' edit: Actually, come to think of it, I have met doctors who don't want to talk about weight-related health issues... when those health issues come from being too thin. Because clearly, women want to be as thin as possible no matter the negative effects this might have, therefore they cannot tell them about dangerous weight loss related side effects or must downplay the dangers sudden weight loss can mean (like CANCER). Which is not a problem with fat people existing, it's a problem with fatphobia in the medical industry and the obsession with diet culture that the US has. Also: Anorexia is incredibly common in people who aren't rail thin, it just goes undiagnosed because doctors refuse to believe that you can have a restrictive eating disorder while fat. Anecdotally, I know a fair few people with disordered eating, bulimia, and anorexia, that have their issues dismissed because they are fat. See TheMockingCrow's post where a doctor blatantly lied on their medical records because she refused to believe that someone could be restricting their intake and keeping on the weight.
besides a thing people apparently love to forget or don't actually know about the bmi is that It was developed by Adolphe Quetelet, who was a mathematician, astronomer, statistician and sociologist. You may note that none of these fields even so much as touch on biology or medicine, nor was this guy a nutritionist of any kind. Oh and the formula was also developed between 1830 and 1850. So it's not exactly state of the art research Another researcher on the topic, Ancel Keys, who first coined the term Body Mass Index and popularized its usage in statistical analysis of populations to look at potential (!!!) correlations between weight and chronic illnesses (published in July 1927 in the Journal of Chronic Disease). In that journal publication the "BMI was explicitly cited by Keys as appropriate for population studies and inappropriate for individual evaluation." [wikipedia bc i am not gonnapay for an article from 91 years a-fucking-go for an internet argument, and I'm not willing to fight my way through medical jargon. it's here tho if ur interested https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0021968172900276?via=ihub]
I'm fat. Just as in feminism, the mere fact of my body's existence is neither warrant nor consent for commentary. Die mad about it. Tl;dr: who asked for your opinion on my or any other body?
(((((((( That person can be you, you just need to not trust the first source you google unquestioningly like you did with the Jews run the media thing )))))))
I've never heard of a doctor being afraid to discuss weight. I've heard of doctors refusing to even consider running cheap and obviously-indicated tests because Patient Is Fat That Is Obviously The Problem.
Yeah, my mom ended up with a severe internal bleed and anemia for FOUR YEARS, because the doctors refused to do the surgery that would kill her because she was a bit overweight. And they didn't tell her that was why. At the time, she needed to lose 20 lbs. After FOUR YEARS, she gained weight because she literally could not walk for more than 10 minutes without getting dizzy. They told her she needed to lose 60 lbs to do the surgery and she did it. The doctor who finally saw her and gave her a goal and was like "we're getting this fixed" was appalled and said it was definitely weight discrimination and that we should let her know when we sue them for malpractice because she'll testify. That's how bad fatphobia is. Like, legit, my mom nearly died multiple times. I really don't give a fuck about any points they might possibly have. (And this isn't even going into the fatphobia I've had to deal with on my own)
My best friends Aunt has always been heavyset. In college, she went to the clinic on campus. They told her she really needed to lose weight. She started dieting, but shortly into her diet, she started having pain below her stomach. She went to the clinic. They told her she was just complaining because she didn't wanna be on a diet. They sent her home. The pain got a lot worse over the next two days. She went back to the clinic. They told her to stick to her diet and just deal with the pain. The pain got worse. She couldn't walk. The clinic gave her a bed but told her to stop complaining. Her boyfriend came to see her and found her curled up on the bed crying because it hurt. He picked her up, yelled at the nurses that they were killing her, and carried my friend's Aunt to the hospital. Turns out her appendix had burst. It would have killed her, except the infection got trapped in a fat pocket. Because all the nurses were focused on was her weight, they missed the obvious signs of appendicitis, and she almost died as a result. I wouldn't say those nurses were afraid to bring up her weight. I would say they should have STOPPED bringing it up and actually provided medical care for her.
Hmmm, well they do acknowledge that taller and more active people need more, that's why I refer to it as a sub cluster because there is 1500isplenty and probably 1700isplenty. But yeah, 1200 is a general guideline because trying to live off of vitamin supplements is pretty risky. Nevermind that three bricks of Ramen a day will give you the calorie count with a side of scurvy. A little bit of a tangent... could they be a proanna sub in disguise? When Tumblr cracked down on proanna, I got curious and it seems like their go-to for killing hunger was sugar-free jello. The last time I looked at a proanna site, their meal recommendations were comparatively reasonable (if a little light on the protein) with counts like 200-400 and eating 3-4 times per day. 1200isplenty does seem to be REALLY fond of HaloTop. (I've got a rant brewing about that damn stuff, and I haven't even tasted it.) I thought that typical anorexia was about taking it too far, as in continuing to diet even after going below what is dictated by culture. Atypical anorexia seems to be about trying to take that process too fast, since its defining thing is that the sufferer hasn't hit underweight despite the efforts towards starvation. I do think that culture in general is a big factor. Orthorexia's milder cousin goes under the term "Clean Eating." I think I really got interested in it during one of my husband's deployments. I was drinking so little that I managed to make a bottle of rum last almost a month. (Seriously, my car almost got towed because I almost went a month without leaving the house to see the warning sticker.) I don't remember what I was usually eating at the time, but I got lazy and ate two frozen dinners in a row instead of cooking. I felt fuzzy and realized that it was the same fog that I had during much of my childhood, which was heavy in pre-processed food. (The question of what the heck I was eating if it was mostly preservative-free... trying to remember the real answer will probably drive me crazy, but it probably involved pasta, sauce, rice, tinned fish, frozen vegetables, crackers, cheese, canned soup, frozen meat, and eating shredded wheat and other cereals without milk. Almost coma-level sedentary and being overweight means that two "normal-sized" meals was all I needed.) Rather than try to track down one ingredient, I just decided to set up some loose guidelines that were based on the question "Was this available in 1940?" It was based on the ingredient panel instead of concept mostly, and I made enough exceptions that it was more toward health-conscious than crippling. (Cheerios might not have existed, but the ingredients on the box I just bought say that my stomach can't tell the difference between them and oatmeal.) Just looking at my cabinet, the tri-color pasta is an exception because it has powdered vegetables and lists the enrichments, the whole-wheat pasta just has whole wheat on the label. First jar of pasta sauce I grab, I'm kinda happy that it has soybean oil instead of canola even though I completely gave up on being picky about that, and hey it has sugar instead of HFCS. You'd be surprised at just how restrictive things can get if you refuse to eat HFCS. After looking up how "cheese powder" is made, it really should be allowed if I stick to brands that use anatto instead of yellow dye, but really I should just use real cheese if I want mac and cheese. Instant noodles should be out of the diet because of a video I saw. The biggest restriction is that if I want a dessert food, I should make it from scratch. I bought a 6" lemon meringue pie the other day, ate the recommended serving that was 1/4 of the pie and a 300-calorie slice. Damn thing made me sick to my stomach because I still can't handle proper desserts 20 years after doing a variation on the twinkie experiment. Sorry if that went tangenty. This is fatlogic rhetoric, but gaining weight when you claim to be at a calorie deficit usually means that one of the numbers is wrong. I think that the diet advice to be concerned over trends instead of daily variations is okay. (I think I heard something about bowel movements affecting weight by a pound or two.)
I went through quite a few more steps before falling for that one. Here we are debugging fatlogic. I'm not going to respond to everyone because I'm happy that this conversation is slipping off of my issues onto a larger one.
1200 calories is plenty of calories.... for a child. Adults need a lot more than that to not lose weight, usually. If I remember correctly what my dietitian said, it would be about 1700-1800 for a sedentary adult woman and 1800-2000 for sedentary adult men. Anything that claims adults can thrive on a 1200 calorie diet as a general guideline is absolutely pro-ana; my weight loss diet has more calories than that.
We keep sitting here and providing examples where fatlogic rhetoric is wrong, but you keep bringing it up like you think that it's fact. I think that's what people are frustrated with? We tell you how your/the community you're in logic is wrong, but then you counter with more of the logic that we just argued against. I think it would help if you included more markers on whether or not you believe the thing you're saying. Like, this particular post was okay: pointing out that it's fatlogic rhetoric indicates that you might not necessarily believe all of it. But most of this thread, you've just been stating things as fact.
Also, 1200 was like the BARE MINIMUM when my mom was going on her DOCTOR APPROVED diet to lose the weight for the surgery. But she had to have regular (like every two weeks) check ups to make sure that she wasn't hurting herself. She was VERY closely monitored and she had to be careful to listen to her doctors to make sure she got everything that she needed. But that was like a really intense diet. 1200 is NOT enough on the regular, fuck that noise.
This is you saying that a ProAna website has "pretty reasonable guidelines" for calorie counts and meal plans. That's fucked up. This is also you recommending that for people with presumably much greater calorie needs to sustain a larger body mass. That's even more fucked up. This logic is going to hurt people and screw with their bodies, possibly irreparably. Stop.
I am overweight - that's not even a question. I have a bit of a stomach, and i'm not exercising right now as much as i do when class is in session (but i still walk two miles a day). When I went on testosterone, I gained a bunch of weight, but I started to look more trim because of fat redistribution and the fact that muscle is much denser than fat. If somebody does start exercising, it is possible they will GAIN weight, simply because they are becoming more toned.
