Well yes, but that was because IIRC, doing that sort of thing to a cavy would have been cruel. Calorie restricting, generally not helpful. I disagree in some instances. It needs to be reasonable, though. Booze, also not helpful and in fact is the most calorie dense + nutrient void thing to can (relatively) safely put in your body. Even shit like fast food and Twinkies still have nutrients. Is there anyone who actually believes that booze is good for the body? I mean, other than topically. Diets in general are useless. Lifestyle changes are the hardest but also most effective. You are more likely to lose weight of you stop dieting and calorie restricting, even slightly increase activity, and select foods with the right balence of nutrient content. Which is where I go in and blur the line. Quick fad diets are mostly useless. Sometimes one of those 3-day things can make you feel better, including getting the scale to move if you have fecal-weight, but mostly they're placebo. CICO, Clean Eating, GF before the junkfood, eating like a diabetic, those are sustainable. CICO and clean eating are the sort of thing you could reasonably do for the rest of your life, and people are forced into the other two examples because of their health. I guess it is more of a lifestyle change, but with a period of being stricter than you would be later. I trimmed the part about calorie-restricting if you're severely overeating. There's also the part where it can help people that are undereating. (Not to mention that without CICO, I'm left with unhealthy fads or just not eating until it drives me crazy.) CICO is something that needs to keep being adjusted. However this is often not only hard but often also expensive. Many people do not have the time, money, or support they need to achieve these changes. Genetics, health conditions, medications and many other factors outside of people's control are also huge contributors to weight challenges. No one chooses to be fat. I agree that while most people don't decide "hey, I'm going to be fat" they do make choices that lead to it. I will concede that making the choices to prioritize health are sometimes too hard, and that's okay. I'm still listening to the "food desert" debate if it comes up, but mostly believing in it. I'm all for education in a way that will make a difference. I will concede genetics and other things, and sometimes you can't adjust enough because that's hard too. This entire go-around with you @Athol Magarac has been an attempt to demonstrate and convince you: Reddit dieting threads and their culture are not good places to get your information on what is or isn't healthy. You have to go in with a skeptical attitude. Places like Nerdfitness are better, or at least the NF I remember from a few years back, even though they were obsessed with the paleo. (Lots of lifters, so 80% paleo was probably close to right for a lot of them.) The wild west of Reddit is better than blogs unless you get the right variety. I got most of my clean-eating ideas from https://blackgirlsguidetoweightloss.com/ in 2010 or something. (Not doing the math, but I think I remember sitting in that one room while reading it.) Do not bring their ideas or phrasing into a mental health forum. Is this new? I think that might have been a good strategy to pull on me early. Did I just not notice? You should probably stop frequenting them at all because it is negatively affecting the way up think of your own body and how you approach trying to get healthy Damage done. Move forward and see if something new balances things out. Right now I'm still kinda anti-antidieters. I deserve to improve my body to its best state instead of trying to learn to be happy with its shabby condition just because people tell me that improving is impossible so why bother trying. Fat is not an indicator of overall health Correlation. You have unhealthy skinny people and healthy fat people. Just much of the overlap is that a lot of people who don't take care of their health happen to be fat. You are not entitled to know anything about a fat person's health history Not on an individual level. Certain health bloggers, it might come up. You need to stop making assumptions about fat people's health history or medical needs based on the fact that they are fat. On an individual level, I don't. On a general level I can say "that's bizarre" in response to someone saying they gained an extreme amounts of weight in response to a condition that shouldn't do that. Fat people do not choose to be fat See above. I am getting tempted to flip out about it though. Some people have decided to love themselves in the body they are in. They are not "promoting obesity" The people who try to promote obesity are the ones promoting obesity. I'm not drawing a hard line, but some thought does need to be given to where it goes. "CICO is automatically disordered eating" is something that should be fought against. Most tools have a good use and a harmful use. There are no fat people who are deserving of shame or judgement, not even if you're just thinking it at them. Thoughts influence actions. Even if you think you are being the good guy by not getting up in their faces irl, you still go to online communities and spread the fatphobic and shaming rhetoric that you pick up from these pro-diet (and sometimes pro-ana) communities. A lot of time in pro-diet communities, I try to disrupt things if it goes too far, but I can't be too discordant. I don't think that sort of thing would fly in a strong HAES group, so the only disrupt level is on the way in. I think that the only proanna sites I'm in are either open about it or get really offended and insist they're antiana. (EDfood, their OMAD would make a good breakfast or the snack I eat before starting to cook dinner.) My good guy looks at a fat-person IRL and doesn't load the thought-train right away. I remember seeing a person-of-size in the airport but I can't give any accurate details beyond "they were sitting in the gate-area, and the chair I found was adequate even with arms. Inaccurate impression is about as old as I look, which is an ambiguous 24-38, their clothes were neither ratty nor fine." That needs to stop. This list was incredibly useful up until this point. Stop what I was doing right alongside what I was doing wrong? Stop everything that you disagree with no matter what opinions haven't been perfectly swayed? You need to eat. Well yes. Aim for 1200. have an extra 300 if I'm feeling peckish, some days I might be more in the 1700-2000 range and not feel bad about it... is this about someone misunderstanding my meal-strategy of before-dinner calories as trying to live off of 600? I meant to respond to that. It's not even proper IF, it's an anti-loopy thing because I don't feel hunger properly. I can either allow boredom-eating or have a mild freak out unless I do those set meals. You need to get sober. Yes, mom. Given all of the above, is there still something you are not clear on or disagree with?[/QUOTE] I think I mentioned most of it except for trimming my defense of calorie-restriction.