r/fatlogic derail

Discussion in 'General Advice' started by Athol Magarac, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. palindromordnilap

    palindromordnilap Well-Known Member

    I think Athol might not be counting alcohol in that calorie intake, unless she got way down from the 2000 calories she brought up last week.
    • Winner x 1
  2. TheOwlet

    TheOwlet A feathered pillow filled with salt and science

    I'd like to reiterate, again, that 1200 kcal would be over 200kcal below my metabolic base meaning i would give my body hell in a handbasket if i tried to live of that even if i did nothing but lay in bed 24/7.

    As it is, i have a job and all that and generally assume a need of closer to 1800kcal. That's 600 kcal above that 1200 line. That's a surefire way to punch me right into starvation mode, which is both incredibly stressful for the body and counterproductive (and unhealthy!!). What @IvyLB and @Kathy Jones said above is very much correct wrt how weightloss is best approached.
    • Agree x 2
  3. Lizardlicks

    Lizardlicks Friendly Neighborhood Lizard

    Yeah, honestly, your best bet to lose weight and become healthier is to focus on the quality of what you're putting into your body and increase physical activity. Now that second part is going to be hard when you have pain with basic movements (walking, I don't know if anything else) and you really can't just jump into the deep end if you don't currently have a lot of regular activity. You won't have the strength or stamina to start into a full workout schedule, and burnout can leave you more discouraged than when you started. Finding easy, gentle, low impact exercises you can add gradually and starting at low (very low, like three or four) reps will be key.

    ETA: You can't do ANY of that if you aren't getting enough of the right fuel though. If you try to exercises while you're still calorie restricting you're gonna hit an energy crash HARD.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
    • Agree x 7
  4. TheOwlet

    TheOwlet A feathered pillow filled with salt and science

    for low impact exercise, swimming can be good, especially if pressure on your feet/legs is painful. The water takes most of your weight and provides resistance when you move, so it can be a good way to get started on things without throwing yourself into a gym or such.
    • Agree x 4
  5. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    I can't remember the details, but I did nope out of there because it was discouraging. It was just one person IIRC, (because of lack of traffic) and they were anti-weightloss. There was a non-HAES person that I PM'd with a bit who found me there.

    At least here, most of the anti-dieting stuff seems to be somewhat caught up in not distinguishing between "fad diet" (something in between of dubious value) "diabetic diet" and a lovely argument about minimum calorie requirements. (Seriously, I love how not everyone has the same "hard minimum for everyone" number.)

    I hate being wet, especially when I spend so much time being cold. (Seriously, when hubby and I move into the forever house, we're dividing it so that his part is air conditioned and my part is open to get warm in the summer.)

    I should ask around my hoarders group if someone has a bicycle they're not using. There's also stretching/bodyweight stuff.
  6. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    You don't need personal trainers. Spare time is probably the biggest hangup, followed by a job that's physically demanding enough to wear them out, but not enough to count as exercise. When I lost weight accidentally, my activity level was comparable to a meter-reader's. When I changed jobs, I should have started a jogging routine. The support is also cheap if you have an internet connection. Having to get away from non-supportive family members would be a problem.

    Economic/food insecurity is something that should be addressed. It's kinda it's own ball of rats on how helpless they are.

    No, it started because of "fee fees" and when I admitted to my mistake, people started rubbing my face in it and trying to convince me that fatlogic was really fatpeoplehate.

    I guess people missed it, but I did express interest in learning about incels because everything I know about them right now comes from a hate-sub.

    BTW, adding things to emphasize "the belief, not you" on things that could potentially be insulting... that's good.

    Well yeah, I need to get serious about the drinking before CICO would do any good. Dealing with the hoarding will help with the drinking.

    It's plantar fasciitis. About the best thing I can do at this point is to lose weight. Good shoes, foam-rolling, ice, and staying moderately active are also ways to keep it in check. I could also try buying a walkable brace to sleep in. (The old one would have gotten broken if I had a night-terror while wearing it.) I did get some exercises to do, but I stopped after straining something up the back of my knee. That's since been debunked as "not good"
  7. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    Well that's the problem. Non-growly stomach and lack of hunger could also be actually eating enough or too much. The TDEE estimate does get a bit complicated.

    CICO does sort of assume that you're already eating a somewhat-balanced diet? The same food you normally eat, just smaller portions. For some people, that might mean having to make adjustments to more vegetables and less cake, but that's where the ability to customize your diet comes in. Plus. CICO can also become a long-term or even lifetime thing. Brief mention to the under-eaters who use it... For someone who chronically overeats, they might need the tool to retrain to normal even when they're not trying to lose, and sometimes the hunger-signals get so messed-up that it's better to use the calorie number than to trust their own body.

    I haven't really paid attention, but I think a lot of the recommended calorie trackers also do macros.

    Why is fish so important? Looks like I can get the same thing by using olive oil in my eggs.

    Rather than track everyone down for replies, Pal has it right. I'm not doing drunkrexia.

    I'm not even being serious about tracking right now, but I'm just paying attention to food. 1200 is a low-ball even for food, and there's plenty of room above 1200 for chips, dessert, or anything liquid. If I were tracking alcohol, it would go as a separate thing.
  8. Lizardlicks

    Lizardlicks Friendly Neighborhood Lizard

    I was going to mention swimming, but I wasn't sure if she'd have access to transportation and a free or low cost public pool. But yeah @Athol Magarac if you can get regular access to a pool, it's a really great option.
    • Agree x 2
  9. Kathy

    Kathy Well-Known Member

    Look also on youtube for seated exercise routines for seniors and the disabled. That's how I started getting my muscles back, 'cause I can't stand for very long at all.
    • Agree x 3
    • Like x 2
  10. shmeed

    shmeed plant me

    i also recommend seeing a dietician if you want to put all this healthy lifestyle/diet advice into practice
    it all sounds very good and reasonable but can be extremely difficult to actually do, especially when youre having trouble thinking well because of long-term preexisting diet issues
    • Agree x 2
  11. Kathy

    Kathy Well-Known Member

    that's because things are mutable depending on height, weight, gender, etc. the quote i used is what is advocated by medical sites rather than diet ones. There is no hard minimum for everyone, but there are known safe thresholds that can approximate a standard.

    At this point I'm just going to accept that you are going to keep insisting that fatlogic is fine actually. I don't know if there's any way I can convey that if a thing is like 50% + bigotry like that place that makes it an incredibly dubious source of information. Especially after things were linked from it that were just flat out fatphobia. It's just being less aggressive about it.

    Ultimately what you do to improve your lifestyle depends on personal circumstances. I am just strongly cautioning against buying into commercial diet rhetoric and advice from fatphobes who would rather someone who was overweight worked themselves into a nervous breakdown and suicidal state if it meant they could drop a couple of kilos.
    • Like x 2
    • Agree x 2
  12. Lizardlicks

    Lizardlicks Friendly Neighborhood Lizard

    Hmm, see that's still going to lead to the same problem re: not getting enough good nutrients. Now it's still starvation level food intake (still not getting the right amount of your vitamin and nutritional daily values) but then with the empty calories from alcohol tacked on.

    You seem to be focused on over eating as a concern, and trying to address this with food restriction. Do you find that you are over eating often if you aren't strictly limiting yourself?

    That's in the same category as "hamplanet" and "dependapotomus" and some of the other rhetoric you've repeated in this thread and other places. "Fee fees" is basically a dismissive attack. It's mocking the person for having feelings or reacting emotionally to a situation, or even sometimes just expressing disagreement. It's done to make the other person seem irrational and thus not worth engaging honestly with. This is what I mean when I say reddit is toxic and you should put it away for now: the entire website's community structure is based around othering things or people that are different. Some boards are not as bad as others, but "not as bad" isn't saying a whole lot. Look back at the screen caps on pages 22-23 of this thread.

    When your socialization baseline is formed on that, you end up bringing it everywhere else you go. And when that's your normal, you get confused when you go to other places where it isn't normal, and people react to it with hostility, because to them, you're the one who's being hostile, belittling, and othering first. You use language and repeat thought patterns that are flagged with big red DANGER!!! warnings to everyone else. But you don't know that those flags are there, or what the flags even are, so to you people appear to be blowing up at you for no reason.

    (As for the incel thing that's... an entirely different thread. I would suggest making a new thread if you haven't already that's just, "please educate me about incels" and let people approach it from there.)

    Understandable. Do you think a heated pool would help with that or nah? I would be concerned that a stationary bike would still put stress on the wrong parts of your feet with the pedals. If the swimming isn't an option, I would do like Kathy suggests and look up some good sitting exercises.

    Okay, that's good to know. I want to be able to communicate stuff without attaching a value judgement to it. Is there other similar ways of phrasing things that you think may help if other people adopt them?
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
    • Agree x 2
  13. Existrum

    Existrum Member

    Athol, I pointed out to you far upthread that your explanation of where you picked up the phrase did not sound like an admittance of error. I seriously doubt anyone was meaning to run your face in it, merely trying to explain the issues with both the phrase and where you picked it up, because nothing in your words expressed knowledge of that yourself.

    I know that even recently several people have tried to explain this to you, but you still are not making clear what your stance is on statements you make. It would be extremely helpful and make for clearer communication if you would add things like “this is something that I believe,” “this is something I’ve heard but not formed an opinion on,” “this is something I think is incorrect,” or other similar statements that do not leave people trying to guess where you are coming from.

    (Edit: incorrect wording)
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
    • Agree x 3
  14. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    I think I'm good. My armchair nutritionist self is a little bit of a hippy-dippy nutjob, but I can handle it. When I get a bit more serious about tracking, people here will be able to see more of what I'm doing.

    BTW, I found your thread and would like to observe. Permission to make a few comments in this thread?

    Yeah, I'm not buying anything specifically marketed as diet stuff... except Lean Cuisine because their quality is slightly better than Michelina for the price. I'm not sure how tracking sites make their money, (the information is sellable?) but you don't have to drink their koolaide if you don't want to. (I kinda lost track if peanut butter is considered a good food or a bad food right now.)

    I don't think fatlogic was promoting "skinny at any cost" but rather a fat person shouldn't call themselves healthy. I disagreed with them because I think that 20 pounds over the chart was better than 100.

    Which I'm trying to keep in mind, but it's hard... (21 days for a neurotypical to develop a simple habit?) When people give me a questioner, it makes things easier. Even asking for clarification until I answer would be helpful.
  15. ChelG

    ChelG Well-Known Member

    Traditional stationary bikes also put a lot of pressure on your crotch if you're heavy, and the mini pedal machines for home use tend to slide away from you on the floor. My gym trainer's got me using one of these things instead, but getting access to one might be hard. Maybe try bodyweight exercises for now.
    • Informative x 2
  16. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    I think you still misunderstand? 1200 and then room if I'm still peckish or want anything. Heck, I might decide that I want a second helping of dinner.

    The greater benefit of CICO is "am I really hungry, or just boredom-snacking" because even with a visual guesstimate it's a PITA to write down.

    Without CICO, I would focus just on my size and say things like "instead of two eggs overeasy with toast, (somewhere in the high 200 range IIRC,) I'm going to have one soft-boiled egg (barely 75 I'm guessing)." (This is a rough guesstimate using nothing but the Cheerios box, but I think my breakfast was almost 300. My bowl holds one cup, I poured whole milk over and it looks like there was a half cup left when I decided to add another cup of Cheerios.) Or I could go really crazy and just eat vegetables with vinegar.

    I could have you review my reddit list for things I should unsubscribe from, but I'm not giving up the site completely. I'm kinda liking the idea of putting something on coloringcorruptions.

    But I think you've stumbled onto a different and important point. My socialization has always been sporadic from an early age and there were people who probably only put up with me because I had a car and parents that let me run wild.

    If people here would realize that I'm a blithering idiot and not a threat, maybe I could finally pick up some good communication skills.

    It's the drying off. Especially my hair and blow-drying is obnoxious.

    Where did people get the idea I was after a stationary bike? I know winter is coming, but that doesn't seem to stop people around here.

    The shorthand would be "Farmer and Stork" but there's probably an easier phrasing that doesn't rely on new people trying to figure out what it means. As I explained my problem with the image reactions, all I can figure out is that it's some sort of insult that I don't understand. I could tolerate this since I understand it.


    Basically, there was a farmer who was tired of herons taking the seeds from his field, so he put out a net. In the morning, he finds a stork caught in the net with them. The stork tries to protest that he was hunting for pests and doesn't eat seed, but the farmer decides that he's just as bad as the herons.
  17. IvyLB

    IvyLB Hardcore Vigilante Gay Chicken Facilitator

    If you remind me after wednesday I can get back to you on that specifically, I have it somewhere in my rheuma nutrition notes at home? Rn I'm in Paris so my notes are a little out of reach >_>
    I remember it's specifically fatty fish like salmon or tuna and it has to do with a specific fatty acid that is overly abundant in fish and harder to come by in other sources. Mmmmaybe Omega-3? I believe the reasoning was 'it is far easier to get it from good quality fish than dousing everything in olive oil', specifically since rheuma nutrition already recommends using a good quality olive oil for all cooking.
    There's also micro-nutrients like iodine in fish which is enormously important for healthy thyroid function.
    • Agree x 2
    • Like x 1
  18. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    Ah, okay. I heard there was plenty of iodine in iodized salt... not that I really use salt unless I have the urge to eat it directly out of the shaker.

    We don't really eat tuna, and salmon is expensive. How about Herring or Sardines? My husband doesn't like anything I cook with them, but I can eat a whole recipe if I go light on the rice and veggies.

    I also don't have arthritis, or at least not since I was a young teenager and that was in the chest. My mom is going on some sort of arthritis medication, but she had Chrones so it might have something more to do with that?
  19. shmeed

    shmeed plant me

    no, do not make comments about my vent thread anywhere i might see it, including here
    but good for you, hope you have success with that
  20. LadyNighteyes

    LadyNighteyes Wicked Witch of the Radiant Historia Fandom

    Yes, it's Omega-3, and no, you cannot get anywhere near the same amount from olive oil as from fish. 1 tablespoon of olive oil contains about 1.4 g of polyunsaturated fats (about a quarter of which is omega-3 if we're being generous). 1 Tbsp of fish oil contains 2.1 g of polyunsaturated fats, 7/8 of which is omega-3. That's 0.35 g to 1.84 g, or more than 5 times as much.

    If you don't want to eat fish (specifically oily fish like salmon and sardines) but need the omega-3s, they sell fish oil supplements in the grocery store.

    *vanishes out of thread again*
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
    • Informative x 4
    • Agree x 1
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