Spoiler: ep. 17 Worth noting that Grif listed everyone else, and then said "Simmons, I hate those guys." He all but explicitly de-coupled Simmons from the list of people he hates. I mean, I'm not holding my breath. I think that intentions aside there are reasons why Grimmons might feel hard for them to do. But I also don't feel like they're baiting, particularly. I dunno. But yeah, god dammit, Wash dying like that would both be in keeping with the show and a real big kick in the gut. That said, I'm pretty sure Temple's thing is a time machine, and if it works might be usable to save him, maybe even some of the other Freelancers. I dunno. Kiiinda hoping for York to come back with it, I feel like he's been mentioned earlier this season but can't recall for sure.
Spoiler: ep 17 yeah, it doesn't feel like they're baiting it and i'm not sure why it doesn't. maybe 'cause red vs blue approaches romance in ways a lot of media doesn't (eg. church and tex have literally never kissed onscreen, there is a lot of banter and antagonism in most of the canon romantic relationships on the show, a lot of the canon romance involve at least a bit of one-sideness, there is lots of room for ambiguity in the romances), maybe 'cause what's going on fits the characterization of grif and simmons, maybe 'cause the red vs blue creators give out the impression of not actually giving a fuck about what their fans think of them (like, i can't picture them ever doing what the mcelroy brothers did in response to tumblr criticism of taz), maybe 'cause red vs blue is likely to make it hard to tell when the pairing is canonized simply 'cause that's how the show is about that stuff... i dunno.
Spoiler: ep 17? I think it's that it's not a major focus of marketing or the show, honestly. The point when Grimmons starts being even loosely intentionally teased comes well after the Blues start taking center stage more. Even then, it's a lowkey thing, and their relationship isn't constantly brought up as special or anything else that'd make it awkward to not have be explicit. They could be in a relationship (or want to be), or they could be very good friends. Either interpretation works, and the show's appeal doesn't hinge on that one way or the other. I also get how Geoff and Gus miiight feel awkward having those two characters fall in love, even if with new characters they could VA the same sort of thing. That hasn't been said to be a reason, so far as I know, but I feel like the potential for awkwardness is probably there. Thinking of the lack of explicit romantic overtures, I don't even know if Tex and Church (or the Director himself) ever say they love the other, no matter how obvious or important that is to the plot. Same with York and Carolina, though that's less omnikpresent. So I think you might be right in that tying into how not-baity things feel. Though I can also see it being the attitude RT has of "this is the thing we made, we like it, if you don't other people probably will" which is... honestly probably pretty helpful and necessary, given the community.
Spoiler: ep 17 yeah - like i said, i'm definitely not going to call it queerbaiting while the season is still in progress. if the season is concluded without "delivering," as it were, i'd want to evaluate the season as a whole before deciding whether that term is applicable. ...that said, the bit where grif listed everyone he hated & simmons wasn't in that list? did make me hopeful. even if the immediately following bit with jax did make me wonder if it was just going to continue to be a joke. trying not to get my hopes up too far, though. Spoiler for what it's worth, there's an audio clip that was floating around tumblr a few years ago, where geoff lists some "lesser-known facts" about grif, including that grif and simmons are totally married. not that i take this as canon; but i think geoff, at least, would be alright with it. (if i can find the clip, i'll link it; not sure if i'll be able to.)
found it (some of the laughter in the background sounds like it might be Gus, which makes sense since this sounds like it was from an RVB panel or something.)
i think you're right about church/tex, director/allison, and york/carolina never actually saying "i love you." like, church/tex and director/allison do say things that point to it being specifically a romantic relationship (like that tex is church's ex and allison is the director's wife) but they never say they love each other, at least not directly and succinctly like that. and like, when church and tex do talk about being in love with each other, it's coached in metaphors and underneath a lot of layers and jokes and stuff. it's not something they ever manage to just say explicitly to each other. and it is pretty unclear what the relationship status of york/carolina actually was - i read it as one-sided, just york being into her, but some people read it as a mutual (i was really surprised to learn that). and in both of those romances, a lot of the relationship shown consists of what the characters would do for each other and do 'cause of each other, not what they say: the director brings allison back from the dead 'cause his attachment to her is so strong that there's literally an allison in his head, just waiting to be released; tex tries to get the alpha to come with her when the ship crashes; york stays up late to watch carolina practice... stuff like that, that's how the characters express their love.
Spoiler: ep 17 it just occurred to me... if wash really does end up being dead (or hell, even if he survives, but especially if he dies)... this is going to be HUGE fodder for the next rvb angst war
this song reminded me of our discussion of romance in red vs blue 'cause this song is apparently an official song from the show and yet... it's overtly, gushily romantic in a way that i wouldn't expect something from this show to be and my brain is now going like... ??? 'cause, like, even though it's a good song and i wouldn't be this puzzled if i saw it in a fanvid for the show, it feels weird as a canon thing. (which might be 'cause, according to the comments on the video, it was originally from a rt short and was put on a red vs blue album for the hell of it. which is also weird, honestly.) so yeah, i figured i might as well add these thoughts to the discussion.
Spoiler: ep 19 temple! yay! finally! okay. a whole joke about how everyone on temple's side is a complete and total asshole that does stereotypically assholish things. and i get how it was probably meant: poking fun at the whole idea of good and evil being all black and white, and overblown, cartoonish villainy. but goddammit, i have a feeling it's gonna become real rough being a temple fan on tumblr. 'cause i don't think tumblr will get this joke or even get that it's a joke or that temple's side has more nuance than this. goddammit. goddammit. i really don't want Temple Is A Nazi and/or All Temple Fans Are Nazis to turn into a tumblr thing. it probably will, but... i want to live in a world where it won't. hahaha. grif's using the methrooms like an armour enhancement. that, at least, tumblr won't be able to completely misinterpret and take the fun out of. the solar powered laser drill is a... time machine. what the fuck. and lorenzo has strong movie opinions. and went up like team rocket. "time travel's impossible." wyoming has a fucking time distortion unit, and it definitely did that in the ep with the wyoming clones and tucker's sword, goddammit. and no, simmons, what you said doesn't explain that shit. temple's gonna destroy earth for biff. biff and revenge. and since it's a time machine, once he actually succeeds at fixing the timeline so biff doesn't get killed, the earth will be safe in that particular timeline. it's actually kinda sorta sound logic when put like that. once he reaches a timeline in which he saves biff, its earth lives too 'cause in that timeline, he won't need to make a machine. and that works 'cause time can be changed in red vs blue: caboose was killed at least once in wyoming's time loops and yet he's alive now, church did a genocide run of blood gulch during one of his loops and yet everyone is alive now... so this could work. it's crazy, yeah, but it could work out - just not for the timeline the characters are living in right now. and yeah, maybe temple doesn't know it works that way, maybe he doesn't know it could destroy the earth, but... if my logic is correct, his plan doesn't depend at all on having that knowledge. temple turned it on! pretty! "we're too late." i don't think that matters when there's a time machine, honestly.
Spoiler: ep 20 my feels! temple's proud of loco and he had learned something from surge! he does love his team! he's not so great at showing it most of the time, but he loves them! and carolina's doing her carolina thing. overexerting herself, trying too hard... i love the confrontation between sarge and surge. it really shows what surge is about, and how sarge has grown as a character throughout the series. and grif and simmons both confronting gene, with the answer to who's the real simmons being how he answers the very first question of the series. perfect. wow tucker. you sure are bpd-style splitting a lot over shit this season, aren't you? like, dude... you aren't letting any nuance in at all. i'm glad that carolina is urging compassion, that she can see that temple isn't pure evil and that killing him isn't the right solution. and i like how tucker won against buckey by showing him that he's the true owner of the sword. and temple's monologue. i love it. he's trying so hard and he's so emotional and he's such a dork and he's getting everything mixed up. i like that he didn't trust them saying it would destroy the world 'cause he thought that was just them trying to protect the unsc and get medals. that's very him. and grif said he wasn't going anywhere! parallels, man! and temple couldn't shoot him 'cause he was reminded of biff!!!! and loco cares about caboose, even though caboose is the enemy! and temple accidentally shot loco!!! and now he's dead! and the time machine worked!!! and church!!! church is back!!! now i'm really hoping for a church-temple confrontation in the next episode. for those two characters to see themselves in each other, understand each other, and have a character-defining interaction. to see how church will win against him, what about him will be what makes them different. and hopefully, at least one of them, will live. (and not just in the "alpha church has until the end of reconstruction till he dies" sense. in the sense of... live in the present of the show. have more adventures, keep on growing... that sense.) i'm so excited!!!
Spoiler: ep 19 yeah, i honestly didn't like that bit. like, i know it's a joke about black-and-white morality in fiction, but... it just kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. like ah yes, they're all evil and think defending hitler on the internet is funny. hilarious. way to show that Theyre The Bad Guys And Have No Legitimate Grievances like i know the whole point is "the trope of demonizing the antagonists' team to show it's ok for the heroes to kill them is lazy" or whatever, but... it still kind of felt lazy & in poor taste? then again my perspective is probably skewed by the fact that i'm not a FIRST member and i only saw this ep today. possibly i would find it less in poor taste if i had seen it when it first came out last week. as it is the lack of nuance combined with everything that's gone down in the last few days just makes me feel :/ about it, tho i recognize that the second of those things isn't rvb's fault.
Spoiler: ep 19 yeah, that joke really hit a wrong note for me too. like, i could recognize that it was supposed to be a joke and what it was making fun of, but i was too busy worrying about what it would mean for fans of the desert gulchers and whether anyone would be expected to treat it as genuine characterization to actually laugh. and i can see how it would be in poor taste with the stuff that happened this week, though since all that stuff hadn't happened last week and i am ridiculously self-centred sometimes, i was more worried about what it would mean for fans of temple. 'cause temple is seriously the character with the biggest hatedom in this fandom, even though, judging by what joe nicolosi says and his backstory and stuff, he wasn't actually meant to be so universally hated, and that joke looked like another thing that would add fuel to the hatedom's fire. so yeah, i was more worried about that than how it could reflect on shit going on in the real world.
Spoiler: episode 21 caboose talking to church... that was so sad. and church had no idea what any of it meant. and vic's death! and the parallels to church's death! my feels! and the glee he took in dying was rather... worrying. like, it's kinda expected but also... there was nothing even remotely healthy about that heroic sacrifice. like, dude, dude... temple was spared! yay! i'm really glad that carolina gave him mercy! washington is alive! yay! dylan's speech really gets at what i love about the reds and blues as heroes, how i love that them being heroic doesn't stop them from also being flawed assholes. hahaha nice one about the fish in prison. and church just decides to forget what happened and never tell anyone about it.
I genuinely don't understand your interpretation of Temple. (I'm on episode 20, btw, because I don't give RT money, so no spoilers for 21 please) Because I'm watching episode 20 and he... he doesn't like his team. He doesn't even remember Surge's name, he calls him Grunt. So I want you to explain. So I can understand. I liked the joke in 19, tbh. It was cathartic for me, and considering RT are basically a bunch of liberals stuck in Texas, I can understand why they made it.
Especially considering his means of defending himself in 20 Spoiler Is doing the same freezing them in armor thing. The guy has a murder room full of the corpses of freelancers who had nothing to do with his friend's death. That's why he has the hate-dom, I think.
Spoiler: episode 20 well, first, that he says, "loco, you magnificent bastard, i love you right now!" and the way he says it. it sounds sincere to me. and it feels like a lot of his tension with loco comes from the fact that loco has always tried to lay claim to a role that temple feels he has no right to, 'cause biff is temple's best friend and back in the canyon, temple couldn't let anyone know that he was friends with biff and once biff died, temple was really upset by that. and the yelling at loco seems like just a result of his impatience and need for revenge. and i don't think he was as mean to anyone else on his team as he was to loco, who was both doing something that temple was impatient for the completion of and who tried laying claim to a position that had already been filled in temple's heart. and i got the impression that, when temple shot loco, he was trying to shoot caboose but he was too overwhelmed - and too bad with a gun - to aim for the right person or find a better solution. and then, too overwhelmed to properly process what was going on enough to grieve. also, with surge, i clearly heard him say "surge," not "grunt." or, well, he calls surge "surge" first and "grunt" after, once he's actually upset with him. so he remembers surge's name. and then he said that he learned from surge that a soldier follows orders no matter what, and it feels to me like him learning from surge means he has at least a little bit of respect for him, that surge means something to him. and in about eight years of doing his thing, before the reds and blues came along, none of his core team had died, which suggests that temple wasn't actually treating them as expendable. and he is doing what he is doing 'cause of biff's death and 'cause he is upset that the freelancer program and the unsc treated the simulation troopers like nothing. that is a very important part of his motives. and obviously, he genuinely cared a lot about biff, which says, at least, that he is able to care. furthermore, in episode 20, he reads as under a lot of stress to me. like, his big monologue in this episode sounded a lot like broken, panicked echolalia. so yeah, temple's feelings about his team are complicated, not really black-and-white, but he doesn't view them as expendable and he does have moments, at least, when he genuinely cares about them and thinks they are great.
Huh. We're going to have to agree to disagree, then. That's not how I interpreted a lot of that, but it's a genuinely interesting one.
hmmm, that's a good point. (i mean i'm also a liberal stuck in texas! but i didn't quite think about how RT is as well.) Spoiler: ep 20 reactions excited time travel squeeing no matter what happens with this time travel thing... this can be the jumping-off point for so many time travel AUs/fics :0 i also really liked the bit where the "gene and simmons are Especially Similar" thing got taken to the logical conclusion of "shoot HIM, I'M simmons!!" and then how that got resolved by grif repeating the first question of the series... Nice too bad about loco tho... i liked him. maniacal laughter and all.
