http://myladyherald.tumblr.com/post/146970018168/mahdic-mahdic-amir-khusrow-12531325-ce Absolutely reminds me of the shadow girls
I just remembered an article talking about utena using the madonna-whore thing with guys, I think? which I gotta go find because I remember it being v interesting edit: found it! http://ohtori.nu/analysis/05_akio_and_the_fangirls_that_hate_him.htm
Spoiler Utena slices cars in half because she's fighting the patriarchy which allows Akio to be a creeper.
I don't like the generalizations about men vs women... EDIT: The point that Akio deliberately sets himself up as a subversive person to attract others is interesting though, I agree!
yeah! I haven't read it in ages, I first read that in middle school and then totally forgot about it until now.
I'm also a bit iffy on using Spoiler: Are we spoiler tagging? Anthy as an example of someone sexually attracted to Akio, as although we only see him using physical coercion on her once on Saturdays, her consent is... very inhabited. I think Utena is a valid example of being attracted to Akio, even though he has to manipulate her into 'consenting'. She seems attracted to him the same way a middle schooler or high schooler might crush on a teacher, it's a sort of attraction that's taboo but also supposed to be 'safe' because the other party is so forbidden and won't act on it. Except Akio acts on it.
I think there's a point to be made abt him Spoiler: spoilers abt Akio's m.o. presenting himself with a kind of edgy, ~not like those other boring adults~ sort of "subversive" image to the kids. My personal sense of him is that he probably works his ass off to strike the right balance between "chill and trustworthy" and "xXx dangerous sexy fallen angel xXx". Imagine what he could be doing with his life if he had devoted that much effort to something besides fucking teenagers. But yeah I was a bit disappointed in the article presenting things strictly in terms of hetero male & female attraction, especially when non-het relationships are such a major part of the show.
Spoiler: Spoilers about Akio, Touga, Adolescence of Utena Especially considering that the movie confirms that Touga was groomed and raped by his adoptive father, and had... likely been adopted exactly for this purpose, considering he was old enough to remember getting adopted. I think that recontextualizes both his entire relationship with Akio and the homophobic side he shows to Nanami, despite being at least bisexual himself. I feel like he sees Akio as the paragon of the sort of person who doesn't get taken advantage of, and admires him because of that, shaping himself to try to imitate Akio in order to gain that 'strength' for himself to try to overcome what happened to him. Unfortunately, the source of strength he picks is yet another abuser, and he's not only getting revictimized, he's victimizing others, including his own younger sister. Even though the homophobia scene with Nanami and Touga is arguably a dream, Nanami does know Touga's habits to an obsessive level, and I believe if she thought he'd say that it's only because he's said similar things. One can also interpret Touga's relentless dating, using, and dumping girls as him overperforming heteronormativity, given that, again, he's at least bisexual but probably has some issues with that. If you interpret Saonji as also being bi or even gay, I think it's notable that the girl he fixates on is the girl that is literally playing the role of empty shell, and basically molds her persona to be projected on. She's non-threatening. She's non-intimidating. She never pressures you or disagrees with you or really, truly acts like she's in a relationship with you, so I have to wonder if his stalker obsession is also a twisted overperformance of heterosexuality. Like... he only shows interest in one girl, Anthy. And maybe that's because she's the only girl he could stomach 'crushing' on, because she doesn't really give anything back? She's a beard. This leads into my conviction that Touga and Saonji are actually crushing heavily on each other but are each too scared to admit it, so they cruelly jab each other and talk about the girls they like/fuck in front of each other and take off their shirts and flex sexily in front of each other while discussing serious topics and go in a ride in the motorbike of Awkward Teenage Sexual Exploration.
Spoiler: content warning for Akio stuff I read Luka and ladyloveandjustice's analysis posts as I was watching the show, so I tend to have a STRONG bias towards their reading of Akio/Dios - basically, that his fundamental nature is that of a mundane sexual predator, and that his "lost" princeliness is representative of Anthy's idealized image of who he was before he became abusive, rather than something he literally used to be. Unfortunately, because I'm stubborn, this usually means I do this obnoxious "PFFFT, look at this dork who doesn't get the show" reaction with any analysis that doesn't have the exact same reading of what is/isn't literal. :V
Your reading of Touga and Saionji is a good one and I approve. (the great thing about Saionji is that probably no one hates him more than he hates himself)
Spoiler: Touga/Saionji - Like, fuck, Touga burns Saionji's exchange diary with Anthy and the motivation for that is never given. It's presented like he's doing it on a whim to hurt Saionji, but why would he hate that diary in specific so much? - The aformentioned ride in the awkward red motorbike, when the red car earlier so clearly symbolizes Akio using sex and sex appeal to manipulate people. - The random shirtless scene together. - They're constantly talking about how they're each other's only true friends, but friendship means nothing. - As much as they seem to be deliberately getting under the skin of the other, they clearly care a lot. They've been friends for a long time. They swordfight together in the end using the bond of their relationship for strength, expecting it to be stronger than Saionji's sword with Anthy. - They do a sexy photoshoot together for Akio. - THE FACE SAIONJI MAKES WHEN HE REALIZES TOUGA LOVES UTENA. TL;DR: They are definitely fucking under Akio's creepy guidance. But by the end, I think they're making a relationship on their own terms, aka the red motorbike! Fucking doesn't imply love. But look at these assholes, they totally love each other. They should just admit it and also get therapy and stop taking things out on other people.
Spoiler: End of series talk That's my view of the "revolution" utena brought - she broke Akio's power, and gave all these fucked up jerkwad kids a chance to grow and move on and learn how to stop being dicks, free from the influence of this creepy ass adult who wants everyone's emotional development to be as stagnant and moth eaten as his own.
Spoiler: Dios Me and Bel made the joke headcanon that Dios is actually a third Himemiya sibling, and he went out to pick up dinner 10 years ago but he has a horrible sense of direction and is also a reality bender, and he's spent the last decade having magical adventures while trying to get the McDonald's. He's going to come back with three Big Macs a week after Anthy leaves and find Akio, like, idk, laying shirtless in a pile of red hot wheels, crying and humping a pillow.
Also, same. It's just too different from the him we see in the show. Spoiler: Dios I've seen it speculated that the Dios Utena meets is actually crossdressing Anthy.
Spoiler [7/6/16, 1:08:02 AM] Petra: 'Oh, Akio,' Dios said softly, disappointment obvious. 'Symbolism _again_?' [7/6/16, 1:09:00 AM] Nick: I'm dyign [7/6/16, 1:10:08 AM] Petra: He looked down at his big mac. A whole pickle jabbed out of it, turgid and hard. 'Akio, we've talked about this,' Dios sighed. 'I'm not eating this.' [7/6/16, 1:10:23 AM] Nick: Oh nooo Spoiler: bad jokes [7/6/16, 1:35:09 AM] Petra: also i mispelled saionji's name in one of those posts [7/6/16, 1:35:15 AM] Petra: but i'm keeping it because it's kinda fitting [7/6/16, 1:35:19 AM] Petra: nobody remembers his name [7/6/16, 1:35:20 AM] Petra: :P [7/6/16, 1:35:44 AM] Nick: Green guy [7/6/16, 1:36:04 AM] Petra: lettuce dude [7/6/16, 1:36:34 AM] Nick: Omg [7/6/16, 1:36:49 AM] Petra: he'/s a head of lettuce [7/6/16, 1:36:57 AM] Petra: knock knock [7/6/16, 1:37:03 AM] Nick: Who's there [7/6/16, 1:37:06 AM] Petra: lettuce [7/6/16, 1:37:15 AM] Nick: Lettuce who [7/6/16, 1:37:41 AM] Petra: lettuce in saionji is following anthy again [7/6/16, 1:38:12 AM] Nick: .......... [7/6/16, 1:38:20 AM] Nick: Petra [7/6/16, 1:38:24 AM] Petra: yes [7/6/16, 1:38:49 AM] Nick: I believed in you [7/6/16, 1:38:56 AM] Nick: And you told a bad knock knock joke [7/6/16, 1:39:21 AM] Petra: i love bad knock knock jokes [7/6/16, 1:39:24 AM] Petra: never forget this truth [7/6/16, 1:39:34 AM] Nick: Okay, fine [7/6/16, 1:39:37 AM] Petra: knock knock [7/6/16, 1:39:47 AM] Nick: ....who's there [7/6/16, 1:39:53 AM] Petra: lettuce [7/6/16, 1:39:59 AM] Nick: Lettuce who [7/6/16, 1:40:10 AM] Petra: orange you glad it's not saionji [7/6/16, 1:40:20 AM] Nick: Fuckign hell Petra [7/6/16, 1:40:26 AM] Nick: That's not even the right joke [7/6/16, 1:40:32 AM] Petra: did u smile [7/6/16, 1:40:39 AM] Nick: I'm laughing [7/6/16, 1:41:44 AM] Petra: knock knock [7/6/16, 1:42:01 AM] Nick: Who's there [7/6/16, 1:42:05 AM] Petra: kendo [7/6/16, 1:42:30 AM] Nick: Kendo who [7/6/16, 1:43:03 AM] Petra: anything saionji kendo, touga can do better [7/6/16, 1:43:19 AM] Nick: Fuck
Spoiler: end of series shit, even the dios we meet in the show's actual timeline (ie, the last episode) is way more of a dick than the ~prince~ of the flashbacks. Like, not quite to the degree of Akio, but he's still just riding his dumbass carousel horse and giving her a patronizing speech while she's lying on the floor, flat-out begging Akio to help Anthy
Spoiler I dunno, I was never quite grabbed by that reading because it seemed too... easy. Non-literalness is a copout, gotta find a way to brute-force it so it's both literal and not. My feeling is that Dios is the literal manifestation of the True Prince - the one who does all the stuff that a prince is supposed to, and the one who Utena aspires to be - hence the whole "Dios flying down from the castle into her" routine during her duels. He's in the awkward position where he can't actually exist - that ideal of True Princeliness is both impossible to live up to and also not actually good for anyone - but he also can't not exist. The story needs him (the princess/witch/prince story, that is, not the anime itself metatextually. well, maybe that too, but that's a different fucking post), the duels are all based around his mythology and they have the power to bring world revolution (cf. Mikage and the way his self-delusion was able to edit the actual past for as long as he could produce duelists, until he himself was defeated. I'm pretty firmly of the belief that if he had somehow won his duel with Utena, his version of the past and of reality would have been the real one, or as much as anything in Ohtori is real). In the same way, he both is and isn't Akio's past - Akio "was" him, because of the rules of the story, but Akio could also never have been him, because Dios can't be real, and Akio is distressingly real (double meaning absolutely intended). Akio's fundamental nature is that of a mundane sexual predator, yes, and I think that's actually why he's the most real thing in Ohtori. His very mundanity, the way his evil is so very banal and unremarkable, are inextricable from the way that he's the one constant, he's the one behind the projector, he's the one constant in the whirlwind of lies and illusions, because they all come from him and don't touch him. Both in the sense that the manipulator creates the world of illusions metaphor-ways and in the sense that he's literally running the projector, and in the sense that he's the real-world sexism and abuse fly in the fairy-tale ointment (i mean the movie keeps calling him the Prince of Flies, so). He edits his past because that's what abusers do, but he can't alter himself without putting in the work to grow the fuck up, so it doesn't really change anything about him, it's just another illusion. But Dios himself isn't and can't be just another one of Akio's illusions, because he can't not exist. He's an independent non-entity. The ideal of the True Prince is self-contradicting and self-defeating, so its embodiment in Dios has to be, too.
Oooh, oooh, oooh, this is good, this is very good, this is very very good. Spoiler: Akio and Dios I think where both theories are absolutely right is that Akio was never the perfect prince we're told he was, and that Akio and by extension Anthy are unreliable narrators. But I think you're right, Wiwaxia, in that the ideal of the Prince is inherently impossible and damaging to 'princes' themselves. We see it with Utena, obviously, and she admits at the end that she was using people as things to save in order to deal with her own self-worth issues, although I'll argue against the notion that she herself isn't heroic. But the story told of Anthy and Akio, while certainly distorted and unreliable, does have some interesting bits. The Prince runs around saving people but can never settle down. By putting himself in the role of the savior, he denies himself rest. People feel obligated to take and take and take from him, and when he finally goes 'no more, I can't do anymore', they turn visciously on him in a sense of entitlement. It's hard for me to apply these themes to Akio, who himself is so entitled and so disregarding of other people. But the more I think about it, the more it makes me think of, like... the inherent confines in strict gender roles, and how performing femininity or masculinity perfectly doesn't protect you, it just makes people more vicious when you do fail to live up to impossible standards. Utena is a feminist anime, yes, but there is also a strong theme of the damaging ways toxic masculinity harms dudes, and in that sense I think that story makes sense. But that good point is then immediately subverted by Anthy being in-story blamed for trying to prevent a breakdown. I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I need to think.
I just watched the movie and I am in fucking awe. What an incredible ride. I actually don't even know whether to call it good because it just gets so off-the-rails insane towards the end. I'm still trying to work out why Nanami showed up. "I'm not like that!" was a surprisingly effective line, even if it felt like the story was going by at 500 miles an hour.
