The movie totally botches a bunch of the themes and basically makes 0 sense without viewing it as a retelling of the series, but I love its surrealism. If the series is a fairy tale then the movie is a dream.
I found this analysis that explains how the movie could be a sequel to the anime but I dunno because I havn't watched it yet. It sounds very interesting though!
My own thoughts are pretty close to that, with a side of "you didn't really think leaving the castle of illusions was gonna be as simple as stepping over the threshold, did you?"
I was introduced to that idea through this essay, and it's been my preferred interpretation ever since; before, the movie didn't do much for me except as a smushed, simplified rehash of the series with more direct writing and the visual symbolism turned up to eleven, and I couldn't stand the idea of that being a sequel, but once I heard that particularinterpretation of it as a coda to the series--as the story of how Utena deals with everything that happened--I kind of fell in love with it after all. I should watch it again sometime... #also hi #I've been lurking in and loving this thread but haven't had much to say #but hello yes I love Utena please talk to me about Utena
I watched the first and second arcs in the past day and a half and I have decided that this show is the best and green guy is my Problematic Fave also i don't know anyone's names because it's easier to go by colors....
excerpts from the chat that has turned into "everyone laughs about Bel making incorrect assumptions about Utena": [3/20/16, 1:02:15 PM] Bel: Oh hey it's the sex car [3/20/16, 1:02:50 PM] whimsy: heheheheheheheh [3/20/16, 1:02:52 PM] Ivy: that is one of the greatest skype notifs i've ever had Spoiler: spoilers? maybe? i think [3/20/16, 1:20:03 PM] Petra: i'm not even shitposting ivy suggested a good theory to me [3/20/16, 1:20:20 PM] Petra: that the prince that utena met was anthy pretending to be dios a la the black rose arc [3/20/16, 1:21:18 PM] Bel: Oh huh [3/20/16, 1:21:25 PM] Bel: I prefer that [3/20/16, 1:21:31 PM] Bel: Let's go with that [3/20/16, 1:21:34 PM] Petra: just because akio is too douchy to be that nice even when pretending [3/20/16, 1:21:35 PM] Petra: :P [3/20/16, 1:21:46 PM] Ivy: i'm here in my little pile of theory where akio does not ever even get a far off non-reachable potential of magical power [3/20/16, 1:21:54 PM] Ivy: all of it is anthy [3/20/16, 1:21:54 PM] Petra: haha [3/20/16, 1:21:59 PM] Petra: i like that [3/20/16, 1:22:03 PM] Bel: I would love to hear later [3/20/16, 1:22:19 PM] Petra: that being said [3/20/16, 1:22:20 PM] Ivy: also Dios is hot and Akio isn't and Anthy is. There theory confirmed Anthy = Dios [3/20/16, 1:22:29 PM] Ivy: -jazzhands- [3/20/16, 1:22:38 PM] Petra: if you notice the things that akio and anthy say about dios all of them are pretty, um, unbelievable [3/20/16, 1:23:01 PM] Petra: oh sure akio i totally buy you were a perfect prince that every wanted to be saved by and kind and gentle and loving, yeah, that sounds real [3/20/16, 1:23:17 PM] Petra: really sounds more like narcissistic rewriting to me? [3/20/16, 1:23:35 PM] Petra: and then akio gaslighting anthy so much with that eventually anthy is like 'okay that totally happened yup' [3/20/16, 1:23:55 PM] Ivy: shitposting theory: dios is actually the third himemiya sibling that died of a sickness and both akio and anthy have in their grief deluded themselves into writing him out of existence and filling in the gaps with eachother and some magic [3/20/16, 1:24:11 PM] Petra: SEE BUT WE CAN'T ACTUALLY DISPROVE THAT [3/20/16, 1:24:26 PM] Ivy: -mad cackling- [3/20/16, 1:24:34 PM] Petra: super shitposting 2: dios died of bird flu after kissing so many people all the goddamn time [3/20/16, 1:24:59 PM] Ivy: yes [3/20/16, 1:26:11 PM] Ivy: or dios isn't even dead he's hanging out at a pool in florida witha margarita [3/20/16, 1:26:17 PM] Ivy: he just flipped akio off and left [3/20/16, 1:26:22 PM] Ivy: too much bullshit [3/20/16, 1:26:45 PM] Petra: dios is anthy's twin and he's just at another school [3/20/16, 1:26:51 PM] Petra: for him it's been like a month [3/20/16, 1:26:57 PM] Petra: and he comes back and everything is terrible [3/20/16, 1:27:17 PM] Bel: Omg [3/20/16, 1:27:39 PM] Petra: dios is revolutionary girl utena's shermy [3/20/16, 1:27:42 PM] Petra: calling it [3/20/16, 1:27:44 PM] Ivy: lmao [3/20/16, 1:27:58 PM] Bel: Shermy? [3/20/16, 1:28:07 PM] Bel: Oh [3/20/16, 1:28:09 PM] Bel: Nvm [3/20/16, 1:28:35 PM] Ivy: dios just [3/20/16, 1:28:41 PM] Ivy: visits anthy [3/20/16, 1:28:51 PM] Ivy: "what the literal fuck. just what the fuck." [3/20/16, 1:29:09 PM] Petra: 'it's been a century... sometimes i can still hear his voice...' [3/20/16, 1:29:14 PM] Petra: 'STOP TELLING PEOPLE I'M DEAD' [3/20/16, 1:29:52 PM] Ivy: dios was there the entire time all this shit was going down, playing pokemon in a corner somewhere [3/20/16, 1:30:11 PM] Ivy: he didn't even KNOW [3/20/16, 1:30:15 PM] Petra: dios went to the store to get some eggs and got really lost [3/20/16, 1:30:24 PM] Ivy: why don't people ever TELL him he's stuck in an imaginary castle GOSH [3/20/16, 1:30:42 PM] Petra: anyway he'll fix all this in a second he's just got to beat cynthia [3/20/16, 1:31:02 PM] whimsy: akio was supposed to go to gay baby jail but people mixed them up and dios ended up there [3/20/16, 1:31:24 PM] Ivy: "DIOS I THINK THE WORLD IS LITERALLY ENDING" "NO TIME GOTTA CATCH MEW' [3/20/16, 1:31:33 PM] whimsy: pfft yes [3/20/16, 1:31:47 PM] Ivy: dios is i jail in mexico next to grunkle stan [3/20/16, 1:32:30 PM] Petra: spacy third sibling dios is now my favorite crack headcanon
[3/20/16, 8:24:43 PM] Bel: Shit, here comes the sex car [3/20/16, 8:25:09 PM] Ivy: i personally liek the term "questionable consent car" [3/20/16, 8:25:24 PM] Petra: 'statutory sexytimes car' [3/20/16, 8:25:26 PM] Bel: Sex car is shorter to type [3/20/16, 8:25:53 PM] Ivy: "car-sent" [3/20/16, 8:26:05 PM] Bel: Nooooooooo [3/20/16, 8:26:19 PM] Petra: dub-car-sent [3/20/16, 8:26:21 PM] Petra: perfect
Spoiler: about the movie 9:39 PMBel said: but its also really gay 9:40 PMColonel Cupcakes said: looks gay 9:40 PMBel said: So Gay 9:41 PMBel said: it's also a weird fucking movie there's a scene where they all turn into cars 9:41 PMBel said: i'm not even kidding 9:49 PMColonel Cupcakes said: that sounds great! 9:49 PMColonel Cupcakes said: we'd be way cooler if we could turn into cars 9:53 PMBel said: you're probably right ALSo a very spoilery AMV that was actually my first introduction to Utena two years ago, and the reason i thought it would be more surreal than it is
I was trying to explain how the film was really surreal to wife without actually spoiling it, and I decided I could probably tell her that people turn into cars because it's not a spoiler because it makes no more sense in context damnit
The way I try to describe it is that it has about as much allegory, imagery, metaphor, and gay as the whole series, but instead of being spread out across 39 episodes it's crammed into two hours. Two glorious baffling hours.
That would work well. I've always wanted someone to make an AMV about Anthy to Kate Bush's song Waking the Witch. Also, I just rewatched the movie with a friend, and ohhh boy is it fun watching someone else watch that movie for the first time.
Did I just write a short essay comparing Gatsby to Utena? No, of course I didn't. Spoiler: i totally did though Gatsby is very similar to an early Utena with regard to character development and personal arc, but unfortunately he never makes it nearly as far as she does. Both Gatsby and Utena have seemingly harmless or even good goals that they work towards, but as each makes progress towards what they think is best, it becomes more and more obvious that they’re becoming as terrible as the people around them. Utena is able to get past her previous worldview and manages to end the cycle she had been caught in, but Gatsby instead becomes more and more dependent on his view of the world as Daisy, the object of his desires, becomes more and more distressed by how she is being treated[1]. They were both determined to save the girl they thought needed saving, but they were – initially in the case of Utena, and completely in the case of Gatsby – unable to treat the girls as individuals rather than as damsels in distress. A major focus in Revolutionary Girl Utena is the deconstruction of the very concept of saving people. It starts with a fairytale about a princess who is saved by a prince and is inspired to try to become a prince herself. It becomes clear shortly afterward that this fairytale is about Utena herself. In the first episode, she sees a boy abusing a girl she assumes is his girlfriend, and ends up fighting him and quite literally winning possession of the girl, Anthy. Barely having talked to Anthy, Utena decides that what’s best for her is keeping her from the other Duelists fighting for her; in other words, Utena decides to save her from her fate as the Rose Bride, unaware that in doing so she herself is also taking away Anthy’s autonomy. Similarly, Gatsby decides that Daisy must be unhappy being married to Tom, which isn’t entirely incorrect but also isn’t the whole story. All those years that they’ve been apart, he’s been building himself up so that he can be her savior. He wants to be a prince just as Utena does; he wants to ride in on a white horse and sweep Daisy off her feet. By the end of the novel, he even fights with Tom (though, granted, not physically) in the course of his quest to save Daisy – essentially making them both Duelists for another flower.[2] Tom currently has ‘ownership’ of Daisy by virtue of being married to her, and in his words and his actions he controls her, more and more so as the book continues. Between Tom and Gatsby, Daisy has no autonomy at all. Like with Anthy, it doesn’t matter which Duelist owns her; she is always going to have to be a reflection of their own desires. Just as for most of the series Anthy’s true thoughts and desires are hard to see, so Daisy’s thoughts and desires are obscured by the much louder opinions and wants and arguments of those around her. The closest Daisy is able to get to expressing what she’s thinking to Tom or Gatsby is when she tells Gatsby that she can’t lie about her feelings and that she “did love [Tom] once – but I loved you too.” Gatsby immediately responds, “You loved me too?” because he can’t believe that Daisy is saying something that he didn’t expect her to. Tom declares what she’s saying is a lie, and he and Gatsby argue without paying any real heed to what Daisy is trying to say. After that, she goes back to hovering between their two opinions, unable now to appease either of them and unable yet, or ever, to be free to be herself. Anthy, though quite literally trapped by forces outside her control that she has no chance of escaping on her own, still has more autonomy than Daisy does. It’s implied that she manipulates Utena into fighting her first Duel, and throughout the series she messes with another girl by naming animals after her and sending her cursed objects. She switches between the helpless role of the Princess and the powerful, threatening role of the Witch almost constantly – but Daisy is only the Princess, without any power of her own and no way to gain any. Had someone helped her, she may have been able to step out of her role and gain, if not personhood in the eyes of Tom and Gatsby, at least some degree of control over the small details of her life. Both Daisy and Anthy act similarly to real life abuse victims, who will actively resist help because the abusive situation they’re in is the only situation they know how to live in. They may know that getting out will be better for them, but panic when actually confronted with the possibility. Daisy seems to consider the possibility that Gatsby will be just as bad as Tom, as he has already proved he can be just as controlling. At least with Tom, she knows what life is like. Though she considers leaving him, and even says she will, she ends up unable to do it. Anthy is steps from escaping when she has doubts about whether or not she can ever really escape her abuser, and she literally stabs Utena in the back rather than risk facing his wrath. Since it is shown throughout most of the series that he becomes very cruel when she resists him at all, it makes sense that she would avoid that if there is even a sliver of a chance that she might not make it out. Utena, at the very end, realizes that princes aren’t so great after all and rather than trying to save Anthy, she simply reaches out her hand and offers it to Anthy. She chooses to help Anthy, on Anthy’s terms, rather than become yet another person controlling her. Anthy is unable to take her hand at that moment, but the fact that Utena treated her as a person that could make her own decisions was what gave her the strength to leave her abuser. If Utena had continued trying to save her, Anthy’s suffering and the suffering of everyone around her would have continued indefinitely – a prince cannot truly help anyone, but a person can. Gatsby never moves past thinking like a prince; even at the very end he is saving Daisy, this time from the consequences of her own actions. He failed to treat her as a person rather than as an ideal, and he failed to recognize that she does not and will not ever think exactly like he expects her to. He is unable to give Daisy the strength to escape Tom, since the only place he gives her to escape to is himself. If he had only reached out his hand, she might have chosen to come to him. [1] This ends in Daisy’s running over Myrtle Wilson in Gatsby’s car – she is driving to try and calm down, and is quite possibly too panicked to try to turn or stop – or perhaps doesn’t even see Myrtle until it is too late, lost in her own pain and frustration. [2] It has been theorized that the Duels are actually a battle of beliefs rather than a battle in swordfighting skill, which would make this argument even closer to a Duel. Tom believes hardest, because he is stubborn enough to believe whatever he chooses to believe is true. Gatsby falters, because he cannot believe that Daisy could ever love Tom and yet she just told Gatsby that she had once loved him. Tom would have won the Duel, and the novel agrees; Daisy stays with him, a complacent, unhappy Bride. ALSO I went to a panel this weekend that was literally an hour of this one guy trying to explain the car scene, and it ended with this: Spoiler "Why does Utena turn into a car? Because she's the vehicle by which Anthy can leave Ohtori, but Anthy is in the driver's seat."
Spoiler And Anthy is fucking badass in the driver's seat, too. But I think there's also something there with the car-as-sex and thus sexual empowerment rather than sexual abuse and disempowerment as per Akio's car (see also: making out into the sunset after busting through series!Akio and escaping the last of Ohtori. And also something with the car-as-symbol-of-adulthood (mobility, agency, learning to drive as a rite of passage) because "graduation" and who doesn't love a good bildungsroman, anyways.
