Discussion in 'It's Galley's Turn' started by cleverThylacine, Mar 25, 2017.
now kindly show me where I creepy uncled anyone :/
(for reference, only Lissa and Ford G in this conversation are me)
^ Let's be specific if we think something's over the line. This is a forum full of autistics and other brainweird people. You can't just assume that someone can work out what they did that you had a problem with.
It's not just that.
It's that I think a bunch of people are going around saying "omg! cT wants to make teenagers listen to her talk about dicks! she's horrible! she must want to show them porn in the back room!" and getting freaked out without ever having seen the actual conversation that I am defending having had.
I mean this business about "natural sexual pleasure" I don't even know where people are getting that shit from, I'm talking about fucking biology, about someone who was asked a question and answered it, maybe there was a bit of TMI there but I didn't initiate the conversation and it wasn't with FL! And it doesn't hold a candle to all the robots talking about shooting pornos of each other unspoilered or any of the 9 zillion other unspoilered sexual references that have been in this game since the beginning of it. It's a very tame interaction given some of the other shit that has happened in the thread that FL has apparently been fine with. I'm NOT the adult whose characters have been getting it on with FL's characters in fade-to-black space.
And also FL said he wasn't offended!
Just offended by my reaction, and my reaction was angry because FL considers offending me to be a goddamn sport. I'm not his parent, I don't have to put up with him pushing my boundaries!
FL has up until now continually referred to me and/or my characters as 'the annoying moral guardians.' So this whole thing is kind of rich.
I'm done. I'm seriously considering making Weirdmageddon Tango 18+. Not because we have smut. We really don't. It's just not worth the risk.
I also have the feeling that some are expressing their unhappiness at FL being gone by being upset here, when it's obvious by what he said that his reasons are much bigger than that.
I'm personally triggered as fuck.
@Carnivorous Moogle -- you have not replied in this thread, which is probably all for the best, but I sincerely hope you've actually gone to the actual original posts and read what I actually said by now, because I know you've been trashing me in your vent thread and I don't appreciate being trashed based on your interpretations of things that were said about these conversations when it's absolutely clear you didn't read the conversations themselves when you made those posts.
If you had, you'd have known that:
1) The two sentences in which orgasms were mentioned and the one where blowjobs were mentioned WERE spoilered and marked "NSFW"
2) I wasn't talking TO FL or his characters, my character was answering questions other characters had asked her.
Creepy uncles look for you in order to share their obsessions directly with you in private.
I'd rather have a wisdom tooth extraction without anesthesia than have a private conversation with FL/his characters. I've NEVER tried to get FL or his characters into a private 1:1 interaction in game.
And if you'd read FL's post, you'd know that FL wasn't offended by the discussion. FL was offended by the post I made ASKING if FL was offended because of its angry tone, which is a direct result of the thing where I've been angry with him for kind of a really long time because he keeps annoying, upsetting and triggering ME.
So I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop fucking talking about how goddamn creepy and terrible you think I am in threads that the other people who actually saw these interactions don't read and reply to.
PS: don't PM me. I'm not talking to you, Alix, Ipuntya, Feffie or FL himself anywhere in private because I don't trust any of you right now and I want there to be receipts.
For the record, I unliked the two posts I was told not to like.
OK, this is going to get more into individual personalities than I'd like, but I see no way to explain this without doing so, because I don't want conflict avoidant people identifying with FL in this situation when FL was not conflict avoidant at all. FL loved conflict as long as FL could sit and eat popcorn and watch and made a point of creating as much conflict as possible. There is 5000% less conflict in the Rave now, have you noticed? And nobody is winding anyone else's characters up till they explode just for fun without talking to the other player about it here first and asking if it is okay, which FL never did, in addition to not responding to complaints.
If you start shit all the time, you are not "conflict avoidant". Most of the truly conflict avoidant people I know at least try not to be offensive because they hate offending people, probably because that tends to cause conflict.
If you start shit all the time even after people have made it clear that they're upset, and do not respond to them, but continue to do the thing, you are not conflict avoidant. You are being a manipulative little shit. I wouldn't classify someone who makes a habit of winding other people's characters up in the knowledge that they will do something that will upset people as "conflict avoidant" either. Norm's behaviour is technically on @unknownanonymous, but I watched FL's characters wind him up numerous times (even if they didn't say specifically to put naked people in the water park) and encourage UA to do things IC that would upset people like the pregnancy thing.
And when Ford attempted to call TNFL out on it IC because he noticed IC, TNFL had a shit fit because TNFL is a minor and therefore the only acceptable designated victim here.
Just like FL did with respect to me later.
(There was also an incident when Itch tried to tell Valiska that she was beating a child for thwacking her for thwacking the wiggler, and refused to accept that being a teenager and being a tiny wiggler are not the same. IC and OOC, FL leans really hard on the idea that being a minor is the same thing as being a child and adults are always 100% responsible for everything no matter how provoked they are.)
Frankly I'm really embarrassed.
From my current perspective of some time having passed and not being triggered, the whole thing looks very manipulative. The person in question characterised most of my characters as "moral guardians" who were no fun. The minute I started playing someone who was not like that, the real trouble started, particularly when they stopped getting their way (when Wrench dumped their character instead of Lissa). Suddenly the characters who were usually pushing the edges began to complain, because I stepped out of my assigned moral guardian and punching bag role, and they stopped getting their way.
I got mad, lost my cool, and the person flounced and told a bunch of their friends--somewhere else, where the actual text of my posts was not--that I was trying to make them listen to sex talk. (Please note the argument in the other thread stopped when I posted the actual content of the "sex talk" posts). This person knew full well that most of my characters were if anything trying to be responsible around their characters and get them not to do terrible things. We know this because they complained about it.
This is not conflict avoidant. FL wound me up like an alarm clock and I'm embarrassed that I fell for it, then made a bunch of moral sounding noises that had people who normally do not have a problem with me or with the rave to attempt a dogpile, which I'm grateful to Beldaran for stopping.
I've had issues with some of your characters--the clown, Genie, Sal--but I never had an issue with you personally until you started to white knight FL (did you remember that you actually "liked" the initial post by Lissa that was complained about?). I don't want to try and guess your motives because you hate that, but from here it looks like we were wound up and pointed at one another.
To be honest I would read FLs actions as at most inconsiderate, not actively manipulative. I don´t think they are the sort of person to use people the way you see them as cT.
Both Ipuntya and uA I think made their own choices. Ipuntya is friends with Fl afaik, defending ones friend is a thing people do.
Yeah and like... FL is bad at boundaries which is why it was important for there to have been better ooc conversations. I feel like bringing this up AFTER he's left kintsugi to repeatedly express public relief at the fact that he's gone and an interpretation of him as manipulative and cruel seems... really upsetting to me. I am actively upset.
Like this is a really scary and upsetting response to what happened, Kiri. I don't think you're trying to do that but you are. Sorry.
I've been sitting here trying to word how I feel about this and maybe won't be able to very well, but I'm giving it a go anyways? But I think that this is... at least partially a mischaracterization, both of FL and of the people who stepped in after the fact.
As far as I'm aware, seed raised the issue because they were uncomfortable, not because FL said anything. Of the people who stepped in after that, I was under the impression that the majority of them were acting off the basis of ooc thread knowledge only, not anything that was specifically posted in the spr-- and jumping into a thread without reading the previous thread that kickstarted the issue isn't unique to this case. There aren't any clear lists of who controls which characters, so that may have muddied the issue further.
(I'm also a little puzzled by the claim that Wrench dumped Cronus in favor of Lissa, because as I'd played it, he hadn't really done either. The blowup over the comments about crazies was pretty par for the course for them, I think their second or third fight they had? So that isn't an interpretation I would've ever spotted.)
I quoted this over here because it's adjacent to the drama and I'm not sure I want to clutter the anecdata thread with it? I can move it back over if necessary, but my response, at least, feels more properly situated over here.
By "dump" I kind of meant that whole scene where he didn't get his way, not that there was a formal breakup or that they were fighting over him specifically or anything! Not that W dumped him FOR L, but that W refused to dump her and call her names upon request and finally lost his shit and said "I'm done with you."
(That whole scene kinda hit me from left field and I wasn't personally upset by it. I was however kinda weirded out that AFTER that followed the other stuff, as in day one: I'm gonna cut a bitch and call her racist and try to get the guy I'm also boffing to call her racist bc I don't want her in on my fun; day two: my virgin ears!) Sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm not trying to start drama, I just don't know how to explain what I mean by a pattern of behavior without using the obvious example.
I'm also not really talking about seed, though I can see why you'd think so.
I was fine with seed and I thought we were working things out. Then suddenly Alix who has never been a big SPR player jumps in, then we moved the thread over here and Feffie showed up with reinforcements. Those were the people I was talking about. Carnivorous Moogle was constructing this whole narrative in their vent thread about me as a creepy uncle and describing a situation that was not at all like what happened in the game in any way, and it is my understanding that these conversations happened elsewhere and on tumblr.
MamaValiska-Today at 3:54 PM
my whole feeling is that I'm frustrated every time swirl says something like "gee, CT you're right, it was a problem that they never responded to you and we should have noticed that something was wrong" someone has to come in and go "conflict avoidance (or whatever) isn't toxic" because they think I'm saying FL is a terrible evil person and I'm not, I would have been glad for him to stay if he had been willing to fucking talk to me ever, but that behaviour was toxic. that's it in a nutshell
and because I'm a fucking pedant I feel compelled to try to explain how it's different from that. which is probably a bad solution.
hey can you maybe not keep talking about me and the contents of my vent thread and ascribing intentions to me in a public thread where i'm specifically not supposed to be posting, while also ordering me not to talk about my opinions or reply anywhere else (aka, my vent thread) :V
because that's :V fucking :VVV shitty :VVVVVVVVVV
I asked you not to post in this thread because it was obvious that you had not actually read the conversation between Lissa and Norm in the game that people were arguing about. You were just adding fuel to the fire when the rest of us were trying to figure out what to do about it and you were all fired up with righteous anger about something that somebody else did (I guess).
I asked you to stop talking about me in your vent thread because the scenario you were describing, while gross and horrible, was not actually comparable to what was really going on. You kept saying you had all this "perspective" but your perspective didn't have anything to do with anything I said or did. You did mention comments that I and other people had made on the OOC board, but you kept relating them to some kind of personal experience (??? I don't know) and not to the actual conversation that happened in the SPR.
Which was that a character not belonging to the 15 year old made a comment about cats not being able to do blowjobs and my character replied to that other character with the really semi-explicit bits behind a spoiler, and it was not directed at the 15 year old's characters, and I certainly did not attempt to draw the 15 year old or any of their characters' attention to it specifically. None of it violated the rules of the game as we understood them.
It would've been nice if you'd actually gone and read the discussion we were arguing about before deciding to tell people I was some kind of Chester Molester.
So...did you stop talking about me in your vent thread? (I don't make a habit of reading it, but you did link to it then.)
Did you maybe even explain to all the people you were talking with in your vent thread about me that the situation you were describing in no way resembled what actually happened?
That I was not trying to get the 14 year old's attention and get them to listen to me talk about any of this stuff, that it was actually spoilered, that it was a conversation I was having with some other people's characters that was in no way any more NSFW than many of the other conversations that people have been having in this game since forever, that it exists on Kintsugi and they can go read it for themselves?
I don't care about you expressing your opinions in your vent thread, but I care about you making up stories about me that make me sound like I'm trying to groom someone so I can molest them with nature porn. If you want to talk about what actually happened that's different.
you know what? i'm done trying to be cordial. i'm done forcing myself to be okay with you to keep things amicable between us.
if we're getting into individual personalities, then i'd have to say that you are projecting. perhaps you yourself identify closely enough with the characters you regularly roleplay in the spr to the point where it wouldn't be inaccurate their character traits to you own personality, but this isn't the case for everyone. the closest character to resembling john's actual personality would have been crotula, and the rest are either exaggerated strawmans of himself, such as tnfl, or characters he obsesses over for trauma-related reasons that i refuse to go into with you. i really get the impression that you love poking at people's trauma, and it makes me really uncomfortable
but i'm not just going to sit down and let you conflate roleplay and reality when you're making accusations like this. up until my last post, i've been expressing my own damn discomfort, but i refuse to let this shit slide. if i never roleplay with you again, it will be too soon, because if john's toxic, you're fucking chernobyl.
that would be because tnfl is a dumb strawman
also, 
frankly i'm pretty creeped out by your inability to differentiate between roleplay and and reality and weird fixation about everything.
speaking as a paranoid lady with problems knowing what is actually reality, the whole situation to me seems to revolve around a paranoid lady with problems knowing what is actually is reality.
i have zero faith in your ability to differentiate between real people and the characters they roleplay,
sure, you're argument makes sense, if you're looking at it from the perspective that the drama is rooted in what happened in the rave. that's not the way i see it. the source of the drama is what's happening outside of it.
myself, and many others, have no problems with the way you roleplay your fords and valiskas. what we really take issue with is the way you act outside of the rave, it's the reason why so many people are uncomfortable with you, why so many people have you on their ignore lists. it's completely and utterly personal.
if you're going to argue that furrylatula went out and told people to go attack you, and that people aren't raising their beefs with you of their own personal volition, then we're going to need to see some citations.
are you sure that all of these people don't normally have a problem with you? have you considered that a lot of people here are really skeeved out by and uncomfortable with you, but grin their teeth and bear it so as to not cause unnecessary drama?
furthermore, i disagree with the drama being a dogpile on you. my perception of it is that people raised issues one at a time, were met with resistance from multiple people at once, and then left around the time the next person came along with concerns. hell, the issues i had with what happened in the rave didn't even really concern what you posted, because i was okay with that kind of stuff being behind spoilers.
that's because i was never focused on being defensive toward furrylatula until you came out with this shit. why would i be interested in defending tnfl, a strawman character? the most i did was offer john to contact me if there was anything he'd like to say out of concern for his well-being. lissa's posts being behind spoilers were good enough for me, and the concerns i brought up had to do with my own discomfort about what other people posted, yourself not included
sure, i'm putting it bluntly, but i feel you've communicated the sentiment all the same
i heavily agree that calling a behavior toxic is different from calling a person toxic. this is something i strongly believe in. i disagree heavily, that what you are doing is not both.
sure, furrylatula could definitely have communicated better, and it's very unfortunate that he wasn't able to. people should be able to express their discomfort about things without their feelings dismissed as being invalid. (and personally, i think that you're a hypocrite, in this regard.)
but there is a strong difference between toxic behavior in the rave, and toxic behavior outside of it. toxic behavior within a roleplay can be very alarming, if there isn't enough communication, as we have seen. but even if there is insufficient communication, this does not necessarily mean that the toxic behavior extends beyond the roleplay. fiction is not reality. we are not necessarily our characters.
but in this case? i don't blame furrylatula for not wanting to communicate. you remind me of some kind of creepy uncle. i don't like getting into serious discussions with you because you, as a person, make me extremely uncomfortable. you are a very talented roleplayer, but a very unnerving person. it really bothers me when people mix ic and ooc, and i am not at all convinced of your ability to differentiate between the two. i have enough problems with recognizing reality as it is, i don't want to be around somebody else's.
when the line becomes blurry, shit happens to me like getting triggered into a flashback in the middle of a roleplay and hallucinating everything the character i'm playing for coping reasons says as being directed toward myself. you want to make guesses about my motives right? isn't that what you like to do? you get one guess at which was the one time in the rave this line became that blurry for me. that should tell you all about these motives of mine you care so much about.
i'm not even friends with the guy. i don't get along with kids well enough to be friends with one. i don't think i'd be comfortable with being friends with him, and i doubt he'd be comfortable being friends with me either.
i'm mostly just an available option for things for when he needs one
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