So, I'm concerned that I might be a somewhat skeevy person.

Well, I can't speak for anyone but myself, so I will tell you this: I am not the sort of person who feels compelled to make people seem good. I am not easily manipulated or biased. If anything you're worried about was actually a problem or if you were actually skeezy, I would have no problem telling you that.

You asked people for their opinions. Take those opinions at face value, otherwise what's the point?

 

i think you're "likely not" bad. and that is 'cause, well, of a few things:

- you make an effort Not To Be Bad
- having sexual desires is natural (and so is not having sexual desires, though that's not as relevant here), even when they're weird, and as long as you don't directly force them on unwilling people, what you're doing with them is fine
- whether you're trans or not is ultimately a you thing, an at least slightly different experience for each person and i have no right to make a judgement on it
- being pretentious doesn't make you a bad person, the worst it can do is make you hard to understand (but, for me, it hasn't made you hard to understand yet)
- though taking drugs irresponsibility isn't really a thing i feel that good about, i understand that it doesn't make you a bad person and your motivations for doing that stuff might not be in the range of my experience
- wanting sympathy and validation is fine and natural, though yes, whether anyone is actually capable of giving it to you is variable
- i think having people in cdcf who haven't been directly hurt by ray actually helps the people who were, since it shows that people don't need to be directly hurt by him to know he's a jerk
- and on the flipside, if you're uncomfortable with cdcf, leaving it is a-okay
- you don't need to have lots of issues to be a member of kintsugi, you can belong without having them
- getting into arguments, and being wrong, unpopular or accidentally offensive is natural and okay
- i don't think i entirely believe in the concept of Bad People and i don't think the concept is that helpful, anyway
- i have felt evil and ashamed of myself for stuff i've done before but i've gotten better at being a good person, been forgiven and seen as a good person after that, so i believe you can get better at being a good person, be forgiven and be seen as a good person too and that often the brainbugs are just lying about how bad you are

 

can I just say that i recognize that feel, that no really you don't get it, how can you possibly not see that I'm (insert anxiety-fueled self evaluation made up of a million terrible horrible no-good qualities)

or a slight variation: what do you mean, my work/looks/etc is fine? i don't believe you, i need reassurance that things are as bad as i think they are (proceeds to disregard their opinions as "just wrong somehow")

and i stand by what i said that, like, i literally saw the thread title and was like "okay that means you're not actually skeevy, because youre concerned enough to be even asking the question"

and if its a question of whether the behaviours/qualities youre seeing in yourself are themselves skeevy, thats a separate issue and even if they are it doesnt mean that youre a bad person. its like that thing seebs has been known to say, about bad people not really being a useful concept.

edit: fixed typos

 

i think that, considering this thread and a lot of the other threads that you've posted in the past, you have problems with scrupulosity. not in the religious sense, but the moral sense. you seem to hold yourself to excessively high standards of moral righteousness, and then berate yourself for not meeting them. i recall that in one of your first threads you mentioned that you had some obsessive tendencies, and i think that they show a lot in this particular area.

you are very, very quick to condemn yourself for things that you don't condemn other people for. i'm not trying to mindlessly reassure you or present you as better than you are. i have no reason to do that, and i'm not so charitable as to assume the absolute best in someone despite evidence to the contrary. so: i am being 100% honest when i say that i believe that your brain is fucking with you and that it's having a pretty extreme impact on your self-image.

it's not wrong or bad to seek validation and sympathy from a community. it's not wrong or bad to have unusual sexual inclinations. your personality isn't wrong or bad. are you comfortable condemning other people who do the same things as you, and who have the same inclinations? i'm guilty of plenty of the things you've described, and personally i'd object to being called skeevy for it.

you are absurdly hard on yourself. i don't mean that in the "uwu be kind to yourself" way, i mean that it is unreasonable. your brain is fucking with you, period.

 

Well, I mean that would align factually with that therapist I had for a while implying that me having OCD was very possible.

But nonetheless...

 

Ah, but if you actually *are* a bad person, then that is a serious problem with you, which the Kintsugi community can help you deal with! So you *do* belong here!

CHECKMATE ANXIETY.

 

I haven't directly interacted with you a lot, but from what I've seen and what you describe here, I wouldn't call you skeevy or a bad person or anything like that. I've known several really skeevy people, and none of them were one whit concerned about their attitude. (Well, actually, there was one person who eventually did become concerned, and then they modified their behavior and stopped being skeevy!) The fact that you are willing to think about the effects of your actions and stop if people tell you to do so and don't want to do harm to people are three big signs that you don't fall into the skeevy category to me. A lot of what you're saying here sounds really, really familiar, the gender stuff especially, although I'm AFAB and masculine-leaning, so my stuff is flip-flopped that way. I also feel the sexuality shame so much, although I've eventually come to accept that as long as I'm not nonconsensually hurting other people, it's fine. The drugs thing - I live in a major drug tourism area, so pretty much everyone I know does something, and I know so many dealers. Again, as long as you're not nonconsensually hurting other people and you do keep the risks to yourself in mind, I don't think that's a factor. If you want to talk about any of this privately, feel free to PM me - I might not always answer because spoons, but I'll let you know if that's why.

 

Seconded on the scrupulosity thing, holy shit. You are... pretty much constantly interrogating yourself for signs of Badness. You keep poking different bits of yourself and going 'what if this is a Bad?' And of course you probably have flaws, you're a human person, but that's not the same thing as being skeevy or manipulative or anything you just threw at yourself. Also you mostly described your own badness in terms of vague things you are instead of specific things you do, which is another clue that you brain is fucking with you.

If you're worried that the commenters here are too kind and sympathetic (and you're somehow Bad for liking kindness and sympathy), I'll say something unkind. I don't have the exact same anxieties that you do, but I have some similar ones, so here goes. Being self-aware is good, being aware of your flaws is good, but after a point it isn't inherently good to dissect yourself for signs of badness. It's a bad habit or a coping mechanism or a symptom of mental illness, and it's okay, but it's not good. Thinking a lot about how bad you are does not make you any better, it just makes you miserable, and being miserable doesn't exactly make you a better person, and you probably already know this. (Ugh, feedback loops are the worst. I often pity myself for pitying myself so much.)

Oh, and one more thing - most of the things you see as 'bad' or 'skeevy' are things that you think, to yourself, and thus don't affect other people around you. And if your supposed badness doesn't hurt anyone, then you're only being bad to yourself. Try to exercise hells a lot of self-compassion, and see if you can get some more help for your OCD and social anxiety like looking headthingies.

 

FWIW, that's part of why I'm in that thread. To mock Ray's hypocrisy and unkindness, the way he demands things from others that he refuses to attempt to do himself.

The other half of why I'm in there is to watch how people react to him. Because I share some traits with him, and watching others' complaints and analyses of him gives me better insights into why the things he (and I sometimes) do are Not Good. And, sometimes, because I learn better tactics for tricking people. I occasionally feel guilty about that, but meh. It's a tool.

Being an essentially ~Bad Person~? Being essentially ~Evil~? Who gives a shit?

I came to this forum aware that Seebs is somebody who chooses to behave in mostly-good/kind ways, regardless of nature, because behaving in such a way generally gets better results. I'm not horrified by the idea of someone who takes enjoyment in tricking people. And I came here because the ideas behind Kintsugi appeals to me. A forum of anyone who notices cracks in themselves that could use healing, having a place they can come, where the mere existence of those cracks won't get them kicked out.

If you find it valuable to question whether you're a person who takes significant enjoyment from manipulating others... well, that's a useful question. Accurate self knowledge means you can more accurately choose how to shape your life to get the results you want.

But I think the focus on your original post, a listing of the ways in which you're coming to fear and doubt what sort of person you are, and seeking feedback on whether those fears are accurate... What would you do if we said "yeah, looks like you're an asshole" ? Would you leave the forum, feeling sick and ashamed and awful? What would be the benefit of that?

I don't see one.

 

^ seconding at least 99% of this

'cause, yeah, mocking ray and analyzing him + the way people react to him + the traits i share with him is basically why i read the thread. it's fascinating, honestly, and a good object lesson in What Not To Do and Why Not To Do The Thing and all kinds of other social things that i just don't have an intuitive grasp of.

and learning better tactics for tricking people is a thing i do too, sometimes. like, i don't wanna ever use the tactics, but just knowing about them and imagining how i could use them, if i wanted to, that is fun (and a bit unsettling, too, 'cause then i have to consider what exactly is stopping me from putting them into practice and the idea it mightn't always stop me). and by knowing the tactics, i can make sure that i don't use them by accident, that i don't put more into what i do than i should.

and as swirl said, whether someone chooses to do good things or not is a lot more meaningful and valuable than the forms their urges take. being a kaiju, as seebs calls it, that's okay. it doesn't make you irredeemable (nothing does, really), and it is not the same as actually hurting people.

and honestly, there is more to love and admire and trust about someone choosing to do good things than there is about someone doing good things naturally.

 

So we interact a fair amount in the skype chats, and I would say you are likely not skeevy! In the interest of combating the "but this is too nice to me" feelings, I will say you have done some things that have bothered me, specifically to do with your fixation on sex, which you mentioned being worried about. But you know what? You have always seemed to be suffering much more by those things! It doesn't make me go "wow, what a weirdo!", it makes me go "wow, my friend is suffering, I wish I had a way to help!" Which is why I commented in the tumblr.txt discussion about penis repulsion, because it seemed like maybe I could say some helpful things. But if I don't engage with you about these things, it's not because I think you're gross or skeevy, it's cause I don't know how to be helpful past making generic but genuine sympathetic noises.

Furthermore, even if it wasn't a source of suffering for you, I am okay with being around people who I think are just wrong about something. There's plenty of other people on Kintsugi who I like who I think are wrong about things. I only ever really get into it if I think there's a benefit to talking about it that outweighs the cost, which usually there isn't (for spoon related reasons).

Also, wrt feeling bad about having a sense of superiority, I think I know what you mean. Even if you know that it's not cool to behave like you're the model of correct thinking, feeling that way can still make you feel like an asshole. But IME that comes from a place that is genuinely out of one's control, and for some people it is a stronger feeling than others. We have to work extra hard to resist it, which can take you into "but that's not how I really feel! being nice is not how I really am because being judgemental is the first place I go!!" And that place sucks because it not only fisregards all the work you do to be a good person, but uses it as evidence to the contrary! But that's just not true, because the reason you fight it is to be a better person, which is the whole point.

Also also, going along with what @Meagen Image said... If someone was skeevy and wanted not to be, Kintsugi would be a good place for them anyway!

 

Hmmm... let's go through these one by one:

1. Desperate for sex and relationships, makes people feel uncomfortable sometimes
2. Sexually attracted to things that are inherently skeevy
3. You crave sympathy and feed off people's kindness because you desire it desperately, like a drug
4. You actually do drugs
5. You're manipulative and pretentious
6. Your behavior is "male-coded" so you must be male
7. You have racist, ableist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. ideas that sometimes slip through the cracks.
8. You believe that acknowledging these things is simply a way to get people to feel sympathy for you when deep down you're just evil.

My response?

1. Yes. That's something you need to work on. It's something that is unhealthy both to you and the people around you, and it's something you need to have long therapy sessions to manage. And this is a fantastic place to work through this problem.
2. No. Just, there's no such thing. Sorry, there just isn't. Seriously. Just, no such thing. Not even if you get off to, say, babies getting killed or something. Someone who gets off to baby killing is still not necessarily bad person because of it.
3. Humans need sympathy like we need water or sleep or food. You've gotta get it from somewhere, and Seebs built this forum SPECIFICALLY for people who don't have enough of it.
4. You know that experiment with mice and heroin? Yeah. Doing drugs is indicative of a problem with your environment, not with your morals.
5. I'm manipulative and pretentious, too. I'm probably just as lazy, manipulative, and pretentious as you. And I'll bet you anything there's at least 10 people here in Kintsugi at least twice as manipulative and pretentious.
6. Behavior is imprinted by society, not inherently gendered. And you were raised as male, so yeah, you're gonna have behaviors indicative of maleness. Don't be transphobic to yourself.
7. Yeah. So do I . So does everybody. The way to get through those isn't to just never have them ever, it's by expressing them, expressing that they're something you believe, and asking for a nice calm discussion regarding the topic. And if you don't change your mind, maybe someday you will. Maybe not. Maybe you actually do have a point that can be integrated into the discussion. Maybe you don't.
8. That's definitely a possibility. So let's assume the worst and say that's true. To which I say: See #3.

You wrote this because part of you wants the reassurance, but another part of you wants to have something be wrong with you, so you can tell your brain "yes you were right, I'm a horrible person" and just leave when actually... no. No you're not.

You're a human being who is insecure, desperate for attention, mentally ill, and who has had some bad things taught to them. You have problems with human interaction that you need to work through, and a ton of things you need to talk through with many people because you're so confused wrt yourself in so many topics that there's no way you could possibly begin to unravel your own brain in a couple of days.

....which leads me to conclude: How the hell could you possibly come up with the idea that you do NOT belong here?

 

everything you've said smacks of anxiety to me. like, serious anxiety. Pure O OCD anxiety, even.

but fwiw the fact that you try to be aware of yourself and your flaws and try to keep them in check says that you aren't a skeevy person to me.

it's impossible not to be biased, esp towards yourself. it's an impossible goal, bc people can't be completely unbiased at the best of times. it's just not how humans work.

also, everyone who's into sex is into something that someone else in the world considers weird and degrading, bc there are as many ideas about what's weird and degrading as there are things to be into

 

@BlackholeKG this quote stood out to me in the recent manipulativeness thread and i want to talk with you about what it had made me realize about you and why my hackles go up at some of the things you say + the way you argue. but talking about it would involve me being at least mildly critical of you, i think, and if you think you won't be able to handle that right now, we can either shelve the topic till later or drop it entirely. and if you're wondering, no, i still don't think you're skeevy, and i do think you have good intentions.

and i'm posting this in public here in order to keep myself accountable about it, so other people know this is a thing and can tell me if they think i've stepped out of line. the actual convo can be either private or public, whatever you prefer, and if it's private, i give you permission to post anything i say in it publicly after/during it.

 

@unknownanonymous Uh, okay, feel free. I don't have a strong opinion re: public or private because I'm not entirely clear on what you want to say, but go ahead by all means however you like

 

thank you!

i asked first in order to make sure you wouldn't be hit out of the blue with unexpected and unwanted criticism, and asked about whether i should do it publicly or privately 'cause i don't want to make this any more uncomfortable than the nature of it would make it.

anyway, the tl;dr of what i'm going to say is "the way you try to be good is sometimes counterproductive and harmful, and it sometimes involves you projecting the way you feel about yourself and your flaws onto other people."

 

Okay, well, feel free to talk more. You can do so in this thread if you wish to, I don't mind this being discussed publicly and that way other people might be able to give input if they want to?