Sorry Seebs, but,

Discussion in 'That's So Meta!' started by Maya, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. Carnivorous Moogle

    Carnivorous Moogle whose baby is this

    oh! i did actually forget the other thing i meant to say: seebs, trying to reality-edit your stance back into 'well what i meant was sometimes abusive people use anti-abuse stances as a cover uwu' is bullshit. i have seen you say, emphatically, many many times, that every time you have ever seen someone advocate for more rules they turned out to be trying to use those rules to behave abusively. do i need to start another cinemasins counter for gaslighting or something, jesus fucking wept.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  2. Carnivorous Moogle

    Carnivorous Moogle whose baby is this

    okay so hi what the literal fucking fuck

    this is the server where we were planning to get rowan away from wax and try to help him plan to stay in seattle afterward until he got too stressed out to deal with it

    what the FUCK
  3. Carnivorous Moogle

    Carnivorous Moogle whose baby is this


    there was conversation past this, but i didn't manage to grab screenshots before she deleted the server while we were talking to her in midsentence. :^)
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
    • Witnessed x 2
  4. Carnivorous Moogle

    Carnivorous Moogle whose baby is this

    @Chiomi since you promised to send logs via DM to relevant parties, who no longer have access to the server and history therein, please do so immediately, whether it's me or someone else.
  5. Chiomi

    Chiomi Master of Disaster

    Yeah. It was a single-purpose server. That purpose was over. I wanted logs - for my own memory, which are not going to be publicized - and I retrieved them, then deleted the server, because it wasn't something where I wanted to necessarily maintain a casual social environment. I'll DM them to you.
  6. AbsenteeLandlady123

    AbsenteeLandlady123 Chronically screaming

    I'm still waiting for my requested account ban, so:
    - saying "you're right, what void has said does not match the private info we have" does not compromise privacy and does recognize the difference, which is what is wanted, not deets on who said what. Not acknowledging the difference looks like accusations that void is lying about his lived experience.
    - chiomi that was hella inappropriate without at least asking for permission from the person whose sensitive info would be recorded, especially right now. Maybe edit out sensitive info in your record.
    - I have literally no idea what the issue with 'another user' is, my memory is utter shit and if its been more than two months I don't remember.
    - Nai you were claiming anger over the wax thing at the time, saying how he was one of your people and so on. I included that under umbrella of hurt/upset. Sorry if I drew the wrong connection. I maintain you're being very hypocritical toward me on the thread thing, but you also don't care as stated in previous interactions, so, do as you will.
    If I previously overstepped toward someone, I apologize now if I already had not. Sometimes I fuck up, and I'm sorry if I hurt someone. I have no idea WHO but my discord info is in my thread, if they have a grievance I'll listen and apologize directly. I just needed to address that part while I still could.
  7. Carnivorous Moogle

    Carnivorous Moogle whose baby is this

    wrt mismatching information and server deletion: yeah. i am way too exhausted and hungry and just-been-verbally-and-sexually-street-harassed to rehash again why that's so, so fucked, but posting to confirm that i did get the document.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  8. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    We still can't respond to this coherently without disclosing private info, sorry.
  9. vegacoyote

    vegacoyote dog metaphores and pedanticism

    Seebs, if I may offer some analysis?

    This is on you, not Maya.

    Starting premise: Your opinions about these users constitutes potentially harmful information that should not be released to the public. You had sole access to this information. As a moderator, it is your responsibility to keep this information from becoming general knowledge.

    Maya is not a moderator, and is not obligated to keep your secrets. Further, Maya was one of the people who stood to be harmed by the release of that information. There was no practical reason to release the information to Maya, nor did she request that you share it with her.

    Therefore: You should not have shared that information with Maya.

    You shared the information with Maya. In doing so, you hurt Maya. Maya reacted by following some common advice I’ve seen on this site for when a private interaction becomes uncomfortable: she made the conversation public and asked for feedback.

    From what I understand of forum precedent, she was within her rights to do this. Absent an explicit agreement of privacy, damage mitigation re: the public release of your personal opinions is your responsibility, not hers.
    Okay. That is a start. The ethical statement at the end seems solid.

    The procedure needs expansion.

    “Over private channels” is necessary, but insufficient. There must also be a restriction on who.

    For starters: Someone who won’t tell. Someone bound to the same confidentiality conditions as you. Close friends, family members, or counselors- the people you bounce opinions off to see if they’re reasonable- who know and agree that the information is not to be spread.

    Someone who won’t be harmed, or cause harm by knowing. Even in absence of malice, people can act on confidential information in a way that causes harm.

    Someone who needs to know. Reasons someone might need to know that you have strong negative opinions about a user: 1) They are a moderator, and you need to recuse yourself from a dispute in which one of those users is a participant; 2) they are directly involved in helping you troubleshoot your thought processes and emotions, and/or providing emotional support; 3) they are trying to assign you as roomates at a hotel/dorm/apartment/apocalypse bunker. There are probably more, but most of the ones I can think of are people who are directly involved in helping you manage personal shit.

    They also have to WANT to know. If someone doesn’t want to know a thing, telling them the thing anyway is unlikely to produce positive results unless: 1) you are already a known, trusted source of information; 2) they also NEED to know the thing. Otherwise, best case scenario- annoyance, the information gets categorized as untrustworthy or irrelevant; worst case scenario- rage, violent rejection of information.

    In this case: Maya was not obligated to confidentiality; Maya was harmed; Maya did not need to know; Maya did not want to know.

    Conclusion: You shouldn’t have done the thing.

    ... I hope this helps.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
    • Agree x 16
    • Informative x 5
    • Like x 1
  10. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    @vegacoyote I can't agree hard enough.

    However, Maya did say once or twice that she's glad this came out so I'm not super sure of... I'm not sure of what I'm not sure of. I just want to recognize that Maya said later that she'd rather have this info than not.
    • Informative x 1
  11. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I have been waffling for a long time about whether or not to say some of these things. There has been a general problem, which I totally admit is a problem with me, of me not being willing enough to point out when something is actually a problem. Or not willing to say so publically, if I didn't feel like having an unproductive fight about it. But as people have pointed out a few times, there is also the impact on the people who are hurt by a user and don't feel like that's been acknowledged. And given the various feedback in this and cases where I finally came out and said a thing, it's starting to look pretty solidly like I needed to be more aggressive about coming out and saying that things are problems sooner, even if the people in question seem unlikely to take it seriously, or care.
  12. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    Now that I have it, I'd rather have it, but if there was a way to go back and not have it, because, yes, I didnt want it, then I'd take that too.

    I'd rather have it now because it now reveals to me that I should no longer trust or interact with Seebs and encourage my friends to do the same :V
    • Agree x 1
    • Informative x 1
  13. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    also, blaming me for whatever harm may be caused by posting this is pretty shitty and hurtful! if anyone's been hurt, i deeply apologize, I don't want you to be. I want you to make informed decisions about your use of this website and your interactions with seebs and i dont want something like this to be hidden from everyone
    • Agree x 3
  14. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Blame is a sort of useless concept. If either of us had made a different choice, the thing would not have happened. You made a decision that, given my stated reasons for not posting the stuff in public, it was more important to say it than to not-say-it. That's okay. But you can't disclaim responsibility for one part of it while taking responsibility for another part of it. It's a single thing that has multiple effects. If you think the tradeoff is the right choice, go ahead and do it! You're a moral actor, you get to make moral choices. By and large I think you will make good ones, and even if I don't always agree with the specific choices, I think you make them for good reasons.

    I probably shoulda done the thing more deliberately and quite a while ago. I didn't want to deal, I still really don't, but it was a thing that needed to happen, so.
  15. Hobo


    It's like with the vent threads. Doesn't matter if it wasn't supposed to be seen by the person or people you're talking about, you're still the person who said it. That's one of the few things that you've always said that I've agreed with, seebs. If you don't want to apologise for calling people abusive liars, that's one thing, but considering you were spearheading the idea that people gotta be responsible for their own words and their effects when it came to that, it seems a little hypocritical to be turning around and blaming Maya when it comes to your own words causing hurt. And I don't think I've ever seen you do this in other situations when private conversations come to light (shooting the messenger), so it seems pretty fucked up to be doing it now.
    • Agree x 10
  16. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    Yeah, it didn't need to be Maya's problem specifically tho for all the reasons that have been listed previously. And I was gonna TELL YOU THAT about this post when I had a second but people are approving your stuff like the wind. If there could be a bit more slow down so that post mod can do its job that'd be great.

    [Edit: sorry for getting frustrated. It's not productive and I apologize.]
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
    • Agree x 3
  17. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I don't disagree with this at all. You remember how I often dispute the presupposition that there must be exactly one party "at fault" for a thing to have happened? There is more than one category of hurt happening. People might be hurt by me saying negative things about them, yes. But there's another category of harm that comes from having a big public production in That's So Meta about the thing. And if I made the considered decision not to post a thing publically because I felt it would hurt people, and someone else posted it publically, and those people get hurt... It seems a little weird to declare it 100% exclusively my fault that it was posted publically and people got hurt.

    Yes, if people are hurt by my opinions of them, that is totally on me, and I'm okay with that. It's not my favorite thing, and that's one of the biggest reasons I often tend to not express those opinions, but yes, that's on me. I'm not blaming Maya for that, at all. But there's a lot of potential fallout from jumping straight to a public production of the thing. And I don't think "blame" is entirely the right concept, again. I think she made a reasonable choice based on her priorities and the importance to her of having information like that available. But it's a choice that has a lot of fallout.

    And yes, I have in fact previously commented about people posting or distributing private conversations. I went to some lengths to pass messages to Ray and co. when I knew that someone was spying on them with prior intent to report back on things, because I felt that was harmful. Revealing things can absolutely be a reasonable moral choice to make, but it will often hurt people. When you reveal things, you take on the responsibility for the differential in harm from them being revealed. (Also for the differential in benefit, and that's why good people might do it anyway.)
  18. Carnivorous Moogle

    Carnivorous Moogle whose baby is this

    'blame is a useless concept' is a pretty fucking clear attempt in this case to shift part of the responsibility onto maya for speaking out and ~choosing to cause hurt,~ ~moral actor~ or not. fuck that. you fucked up here and you are responsible for the people that were collateral to your victim/s standing up to you.

    what thing are you talking about? making callout posts for users who aren't around to defend themselves, can't come around to defend themselves unless they cede the boundaries they've set for their own mental health, or who you expect not to be able to defend themselves/to only be able to defend themselves at great cost to themselves while they're 'dealing with a lot of shit right now?'
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  19. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    i am pulling more things out of my CV thread

    • Informative x 1
    • Witnessed x 1
  20. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    1) Once a-fucking-gain, I am being held responsible for things I should never be responsible for

    2) I know we already went over "my trigger and trauma was ignored", but my point still stands that this would not have been appropriate regardless

    3) I still do not like that sentiment of "but you don't have to change them', "youre not obligated to solve these problems" etc etc as an afterthought, and only after I show distress. I shouldn't have to show distress in order for my comfort to be considered first

    4) i... i dont know anymore. i think i was going somewhere with this and i lost it
    • Agree x 1
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