Sorry Seebs, but,

Discussion in 'That's So Meta!' started by Maya, Dec 3, 2017.

  1. Ipuntya

    Ipuntya return of eggplant

    you can't really say that someone's flouncing if the reason why they are leaving the argument is because you are unwilling to engage anyone in good faith, unwilling to defend your claims when they press on them, and are unwilling to engage in ways that aren't emotionally abusive.

    this reads as if you are making fun of beldaran for not being willing to take her justly deserved lumps.

    when vastderp gets into debates with people, there are conditions i've noticed that must always be present to him, or else he will not engage this way.
    1. the opposing party is engaging in an abusive, manipulative, toxic, misleading, or otherwise dishonest manner.
    2. the opposing party must be the first to engage in some way; he only hits back.
    3. the opposing party has not disengaged, or else he will back off.
    i used to try to emulate the way he argued with people too, but i didn't notice that he was following these conditions at the time. there are probably more that i haven't noticed. you, also, say that you emulate the way luka's style of engaging with people. but the unwillingness to let people back off when they don't want you hitting them anymore is one of the key discrepancies between your and luka's tactics that cross yours over into the category of emotional abuse, and is the reason why i have observed many people expressing that they are too afraid to engage with you.

    to be honest, i don't really want to continue arguing with you either anymore. the way you engage pings a little too close to home for me, if you catch my drift. but i don't feel like you don't find this an acceptable course of action. it's also part of why i conducted my argument with you in the other thread using such guarded language. i'd hoped that maybe if i conducted myself calmly and carefully while expressing an objection to your behavior, that perhaps you wouldn't use the engagement tactics i see you using everywhere else. i thought that perhaps we would be able to have an argument that didn't involve either party relying on a relentless stream of personal and/or emotional attacks, but this wasn't the case.

    and now i feel as if i don't have the option of leaving, out of desire to not be the target of personal attacks, emotional damage, to not have my vulnerabilities targeted. i disengaged quietly and without a word in the other thread, myself, and in lieu of a single response from me in between, you continued to tear me to shreds in the nickscord drama chat.

    moogle, i just want to know where it ends. can't we just disagree with you and still have boundaries, and not be wrong for exercising them?
    • Agree x 4
    • Like x 2
  2. thegrimsqueaker

    thegrimsqueaker 28 Moribunding Mouse Aggravates the Angry Assholes

    dude, I still don't feel like it's productive to try and talk to you, which I told you repeatedly last night. I've tried to not engage w you (as I was talking to Kel, not you), and I've told you I don't want to engage w you, and you keep disrespecting that boundary. ngl, I'm starting to feel like the only boundaries that matter to you are yours, which rly isn't ok
    • Agree x 3
    • Witnessed x 1
  3. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    It's very unacceptable to warn a person who has specifically asked that he not do that tho. It's boundary violating and it being in private has a bad vibe for good reason. Not a good look, and the apology Seebs made was well deserved.
    • Agree x 9
  4. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    It would be pretty disingenuous of me to claim I was "warning" her. There's been conversations we've had where I was genuinely alerting her to a risk to people I thought might be a threat to her or people in her circle of friends, and that was fine. No, this was me forgetting a thing and bitching about someone's friends to her, and I can't really blame her for being upset about it. That was not a warning about a threat to her.

    If I'd thought it through, I probably could have come up with a thing like "I know you don't want me talking to you about your friends, and I'd prefer if you didn't talk about them to me either" or something. But tact is a foreign land from whom I occasionally receive emissaries.
    • Witnessed x 1
  5. Carnivorous Moogle

    Carnivorous Moogle whose baby is this

    quoting this here, not going to look at previous replies because then i will feel obligated to respond. don't ping me.

    • Agree x 1
  6. Maya

    Maya smug_anime_girl.jpg

    Adding on, and Seebs kinda touched on it above, but, yeah, I didn't take it as a warning. I know what Seebs' warnings look like and this was... not that. I read it as "your friends are abusive pieces of garbages and you're responsible, because you're their friend" and "you're responsible, because I somehow know they're doing this to you too."

    The reason I say the claims about them are untrue is because... well, in my experience, they just aren't. I know people often and frequently, especially if you're not a friend, read Khan as aggressive and hostile. I know people say Khan has never apologized when she did, just not as publically and so often it started getting annoying, or she didn't spiral into a self loathing fit like others do. I know people think Moogle is aggressive or not engaging in good faith because she swears, or she types in caps, or she uses bold, or whatever. I know people think these things because she might be emotional or whatever, I know people frequently respond emotionally to her words anf don't understand at all what she is saying. I know people think Leech was only around to "watch people suffer" when really Leech was around to stay in contact with some people and watch the. more petty bouts of drama and so on and so forth.

    I also know that all of these people are very, very in touch with their flaws and the things they do wrong. I admire that about them. I am saddened that people think these awful things about them because sometimes theyre not nice about enforcing their boundaries or voicing their concerns or have controversial opinions, because what I know of them is the opposite. They're some of the most caring people I have ever met who continually go out of their way to reduce harm and help others. I know the public perception is different, I've thought some horrible things about them too before I got to know them.

    I know better than my initial perceptions and the opinions of strangers and the lies of people who don't like them and that's why this post hurt so much, because suddenly I was being cornered by this post by a person on post moderation for this reason, in a venue where I thought everyone agreed with the content of the post because it went through in the first place, and I had to deal with beginning to doubt my experience with these people.

    This turned into a ramble, didn't it, I cant tell im on mobile
    • Witnessed x 3
  7. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    @Maya it's not rambling, you're good.

    I would like to say that even with Seebs on post mod, we don't always agree with what he does. Or with what anyone on post mod posts. I was strongly against the whole thing. Seebs shot his own foot, and I'm sorry it looked like we were all behind him. Other mods can speak to their own experiences in the happening of that post but that's mine.

    I understand what it's like to have loved ones that other people can't get along with. My partners' parents have hurt me and I support them still loving their parents. But they DID hurt me. Moogle, Leech, Khan, and others have hurt me too, but I know that they're full human beings that have their own relationships they care for.

    But recognizing harm when it happens isn't unloving. My friend Seebs hurt you. It was bad and he shouldn't have. The people who hurt me shouldn't have either. Humans are complicated and I'm sorry things are a mess. Please take care of yourself in all this.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
    • Agree x 8
  8. devils-avocado

    devils-avocado tired and gay

    of all the things being discussed with little or no clear context in this thread, I would very much like literally any context at all for this statement, from literally anyone, thanks
    • Agree x 1
  9. prismaticvoid

    prismaticvoid Too Too Abstract

  10. devils-avocado

    devils-avocado tired and gay

    ahhh. thanks
  11. turtleDove

    turtleDove Well-Known Member

    Moogle has phrased this more coherently than I probably can right now, but first of all? It isn't leaking private information to acknowledge something publically known. We fucking know that the information Seebs has is different from Void's actual lived experience. No one is asking for more details about the private information. I do not have the goddamn spoons to care about the private information at this point, I'm too pissed off and probably triggered by the fact that people keep misunderstanding what I am trying to say and insisting that I'm saying something else entirely!

    So fuck you in particular, Wocky, because that is literally not what I said. All I have fucking asked for is for staff to say the words "the information we have and Void's lived experiences are different, we're sorry, we can't discuss it further but we did not intend to sound like anyone was accusing Void of being a liar". Just - those. exact. fucking. words. That's all!

    Spock? I know you're trying to help. I know. But this still reads like you are not paying attention to what I and Kathy have actually said. Neither of us asked for details on the nature of the contradiction! Or who the info came from! Or where it came from! Or any of the rest of that! Literally the only thing we asked for is an apology for making it sound like y'all are accusing Void of lying. That's it. Kathy was even the first to provide a fucking script that could be used for this!

    So. Since I apparently can't say shit in this thread without it being massively misinterpreted by specific people, and since this is causing incredibly unproductive rage, I am disengaging from this thread from this point onwards. Unless it is to give me an apology for that shit, or to provide an apology for calling Void a liar about their lived experiences? Do not ping me.
    • Witnessed x 1
  12. Ipuntya

    Ipuntya return of eggplant

    this shouldn’t be coming as a surprise, but you are inherently very, very biased when it comes to your friends. it is very easy to become out of touch with someone’s flaws if you are close friends with them, and this is the case for most people.

    you are also mischaracterizing people’s grievances with each friend of yours you listed, whether it be unintentionally or intentionally, and it is highly dismissive and quite insulting.
    • Agree x 1
  13. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    It really does come across as "your claim that a person hurt you in a completely unacceptable way is definitely false, because I know them and they're a good person."

    I think it's really important to distinguish between "I don't think your interpretation of this person's motives is correct, I think they were lashing out in anger and don't really feel that way", which does not deny that they actually did do the thing, merely disputes an interpretation of their reasons, and "The claim that they did that is untrue." That's a flat denial that the things were done, accompanied with lots of "oh you're just misunderstanding".

    We've pretty much all been told that about people hurting us before. Really not here for the "no, I know them, they're good, they wouldn't do what you say" argument. Heard it enough times already.

    When I found out people were frequently misunderstanding me, because of how I wrote, I went on post moderation and recruited several people with good communications skills to make sure that my posts were vetted and checked out and often edited, and sometimes just plain not posted. And it hasn't solved the problem, but at least people have a clear indication that I actually admit that there is a problem.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
    • Agree x 1
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