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Sorting stuff out

Discussion in 'Brainbent' started by palindromordnilap, Feb 2, 2017.

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  1. palindromordnilap

    palindromordnilap Well-Known Member

    Okay, so, first of all, I'd like to apologize for the shit that happened over the last few days, including but possibly not limited to (again, shitty memory when stressed) insulting and suicide-baiting people, threatening suicide myself, and adding Feffie to a 18+ chat without verifying she wasn't underage first (which she was). I'm not going to explicitly say I'm sorry since I'm not exactly sure "sorry" is a thing I can actually feel, it's more "being annoyed/sad at the consequences of my actions on myself and the people I like" because I'm a dick, but what I did was definitely incredibly fucked up.
    I know I often do the "Attempt to break an argument by making both sides hate me" thing, but I don't know if, in that case, it was that or "Aggressively defend the people I like from a perceived threat". In this thread, I'm going to attempt to figure it out and find a way for it not to happen again.
     
  2. Ruevian

    Ruevian Killer Queen

    So just to be clear starting off, you don't feel any remorse for suicide baiting and insulting and lying about ASPD anon and Vivec? Your regret stems only from having to deal with consequences and upsetting your friends?
     
    • Like x 9
  3. palindromordnilap

    palindromordnilap Well-Known Member

    I don't remember any outright lying happening, it was more jumping to conclusions. Anyway, I don't know if I feel remorse about this because I still don't have a clear definition of what remorse is. I feel bad for what happened, but I don't know if that's because it was a bad thing or because of the consequences. I do acknowledge that what I did was incredibly shitty, though.
     
  4. palindromordnilap

    palindromordnilap Well-Known Member

    Basically: I simply don't know whether "I'm sorry" is factually true, and if it's not, then I'd be lying and that would probably be a bad thing.
     
  5. Ruevian

    Ruevian Killer Queen

    I'm asking because if you can't emphasize with the people you targeted, it's much more likely you'll do it again. I think you have a hard time seeing people you get angry with as people, and that excuses any actions in your mind.

    If you can't emphasize, then we'll work on figuring out how to manage your anger and remembering how it felt to face consequences. That said, if you don't care about how you affected the people you don't like, your apology is meaningless to them.
     
    • Like x 8
  6. Maya

    Maya 人間失格 • she/they

    Even if you don't empathize with the feeling of being sorry and remorseful, you can still say "I'm sorry", and preferably as directly as possible to the people you have hurt. (Mainly Vivec and ASPD Anon)
     
    • Like x 2
  7. Ruevian

    Ruevian Killer Queen

    Yeah, that's a good idea. A real apology, without any caveats or excuses, might help clear the air a bit more. Of course, since you've started out already saying you're not really sorry, they might not accept your apology, and that's within their rights.
     
    • Like x 3
  8. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I don't think that follows.

    As a person who does not experience guilt, shame, and remorse, I feel it's important to distinguish between those and contrition. A desire to change behavior because you believe that the outcomes were bad is more important, I think, than feeling like a bad person for having done a thing. Someone with severe trauma and emotional disturbances may well not be able to experience remorse or have much empathy, but that doesn't mean they won't try to improve their behavior.

    Basically, I think some people are reading that as "trying to dodge out of an apology", and I'm reading it as "trying extra hard to be clear and avoid making a claim that might not be true even though people want to hear it".

    Edit to clarify: I don't think this actually means "not really sorry", in the sense I'd usually understand the term. It means "not feeling the emotional thing that some people use as a proxy measure for really sorry".
     
    • Like x 9
  9. Ruevian

    Ruevian Killer Queen

    Alix doesn't have the benefit of years and understanding parents like you do, so I'm starting out trying to figure out if she can feel contrition at all and examining more closely what she's feeling and why.

    I don't think she's trying to dodge out of taking responsibility, but I do think that coming out of the gate being pedantic might impede progress.
     
    • Like x 2
  10. palindromordnilap

    palindromordnilap Well-Known Member

    Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder characterized by impaired social interaction, verbal and non-verbal communication, and restricted and repetitive behavior. Parents usually notice signs in the first two years of their child's life.[1] These signs often develop gradually, though some children with autism reach their developmental milestones at a normal pace and then regress.[2] The diagnostic criteria require that symptoms become apparent in early childhood, typically before age three.[3]

    Autism is due to a combination of genetic and environmental factors.[4] Some cases are strongly associated with certain infections during pregnancy including rubella and use of alcohol or cocaine.[5] Controversies surround other proposed environmental causes;[6] for example, the vaccine hypotheses, which have since been disproven. Autism affects information processing in the brain by altering how nerve cells and their synapses connect and organize; how this occurs is not well understood.[7] In the DSM V, autism is included within the autism spectrum (ASDs), as is Asperger syndrome, which lacks delays in cognitive development and language, and pervasive developmental disorder, not otherwise specified (commonly abbreviated as PDD-NOS), which was diagnosed when the full set of criteria for autism or Asperger syndrome were not met.[8][3]
     
  11. Ruevian

    Ruevian Killer Queen

    Okay, let's go back. Can you remember at all what you were feeling and thinking before you made the judgement call to make a sock account and suicide bait people?
     
  12. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    That may be the intent, but what I heard is "fuck you that's not real and if you don't have exactly this specific emotion everything is bad". Partially, I think, because of the multiple people expressing that more directly in vent threads, but it absolutely comes across as "if you don't have this emotion, it doesn't matter whether you try to fix your shit", which I think is pretty much the exact opposite of what would be useful.

    I'd say it is in and of itself progress, because it's working towards being honest and taking ownership of the thing and articulating things accurately, and thus, unmistakably an actual attempt to reach communication about reality, rather than trying to say what people want to hear.

    In short, I think this is not just a first step, but the only first step which is actually on a path that leads somewhere useful.
     
    • Like x 3
  13. palindromordnilap

    palindromordnilap Well-Known Member

    I don't even remember how this started aside from the initial argument about pussy hats, or even my initial posts, and I'm banned from Argument Island.
     
  14. Ruevian

    Ruevian Killer Queen

    I know autism is a factor. I also know things can get tangled up for pages in a thread over the meanings of words sometimes.
     
  15. Mercury

    Mercury 17 Quicksilver Scribe Tramples The Unrepentant

    Hey seebs, you know how you tell people to take you at face value and assume you're being straightforward? I really think you should extend the same courtesy to Ruevian.
     
    • Like x 13
  16. Ruevian

    Ruevian Killer Queen

    It's already been established that vent threads are for venting emotion, illogical or unhelpful as they may be for other threads. I don't understand how it relates to this specific thread.


    Alright. I maintain that someone being unable to see external people as people when in the heat of anger is going to make it harder for Alix to break the habit, and I think being honest about that matters too.
     
    • Like x 4
  17. Ruevian

    Ruevian Killer Queen

    Okay. I'd noticed before all this went down that you were feeling fear and stress over your parents in your vent thread. Do you think that could have been a contributing factor?
     
  18. Ruevian

    Ruevian Killer Queen

    Also, seebs, if you have any anecdotes about handling your anger without empathy, that might be useful for Alix.
     
    • Like x 4
  19. palindromordnilap

    palindromordnilap Well-Known Member

    Yeah, that would make sense. Meltdowns and/or aggressive behaviors as a whole are, for me, almost always caused by accumulated stress, not by a single event.
     
  20. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    It's directly applicable to "how would you interpret comments that imply that failure to have exactly one specific emotional response means your apology isn't valid or meaningful".
     
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