Spoiler: One way to consider it? I didn't see the situation as Jasper only trying to end the fusion. It was her idea to fuse in the first place, remember. Consider that she probably would have preferred to take control of the fusion, and putting a stop to it was just second prize for when she realized she couldn't. When Malachite got loose, neither of them was in control, and it made them hideously powerful. I suspect that's what Jasper has learned from the experience, and that what she's now promising is not to try to control things.
Spoiler: TMI time for me Jasper's obsession just hit me way too close to home. A few years ago a longtime relationship of mine got badly toxic and ended up dissolving. I was frankly obsessed with the other person and needed them to prop me up emotionally. I get that horrible sense of weakness--like you can't control how easy it is for them to just wreck you emotionally, so you try to control them instead. The worse the relationship gets, the more insecure you feel and the more you try to do anything to hold onto them. I get exactly what Jasper is going through, she's in an awful place where she needs something that ultimately will do her no good at all. It was so hard to watch her desperately claw at this person that she felt she needed so badly. She's got nothing else on earth except her own strength and the memory of Malachite. Even if Lapis took her back, her insecurity about losing Lapis would lead them right back to a toxic, horrible and abusive relationship. Someone please save Jasper, she's out there alone, abandoned and obsessed ;.;
Spoiler: spoilers Well that latest episode fucking wrecked me. In which Kathy was Lapis for most of it. When she mentioned missing Jasper I physically gasped and recoiled because yeah. Spoiler: abuse talk It took me nine years to admit to missing my first abuser in therapy and having enjoyed some of what happened in it.
Spoiler One this my mind keeps going back to over and over again is their power dynamics. Even if they were both abusive, even if the relationship brought out the worst in both of them. It's canon that: When Lapis took over the fusion Jasper wanted out, but Lapis used her power to "bind" Jasper to her. She then dragged them to the bottom of the sea. During this time she used her water powers to chain them down. When we see these chains wrapped around Jasper/Malachite they are painful. Lapis was in control the vast majority of the time, otherwise Jasper would have been able to break free. In Malachite's mental space, that meant Jasper spent the vast majority of the time in pain and drowning. Lapis did this because she hated Jasper, she needed someone to take her anger out on, and she enjoyed hurting her. She misses this. She wanted to keep this going for as long as physically possible, and actively turned away any help that would break them up. Lapis now feels like she can't trust herself to not hurt others. Especially when she is put in a position of power/control. Lapis recognizes that this is extremely unhealthy, and refuses to re-fuse with Jasper. if the relationship was meant to be mutually abusive, and Jasper and Lapis are equally bad in this situation, then why wasn't their power dynamic more balanced? I keep trying and I just can't see Lapis as an abuse victim who finally snapped and started lashing out at their abuser and now feels like they are equally responsible. Yes, Jasper is also abusive, but she also did not have the power in this relationship. Lapis did, and she used it to keep that power because she liked it. Jasper didn't like the fusion at first, she fought hard to break out of it in Jailbreak, but she evidently learned to like it because she didn't think she could ever escape it. Lapis's guilt seems completely reasonable to me. Jasper is desperate, and she will say or do anything to get back with Lapis no matter how abusive and shitty it is. Which is obviously wrong. However I find it really concerning that Jasper feels that lost and weak without Lapis, and how she is completely ignoring her own trauma and negative feelings about the relationship because she thinks the power she gets from Malachite is more important. Even if Jasper is big and mean and abusive, I just can't see her as being "equally bad" as Lapis, or that Lapis was "lashing out" at her. The power dynamic is just so unbalanced, and it continued for so long. I can't help but see Lapis as the abuser in this scenario. and to be completely honest the idea that it was intended that Lapis and Jasper were equally bad, or that Lapis is better than Jasper because Lapis can recognize the abuse now and want to stop it whereas Jasper can't... it's really fucking with my head.
Spoiler the idea Steven is pointing his shield at the wrong person the mix of impressed and ??? of calling lapis a monster Pushing on lapis' buttons, hard I'm the only one strong enough for you You can't be trusted not to hurt people but I want to be hurt for the sake of what we make together I'm the only one for you You monster I'm your only choice Eta And yeah. The capture and interrogation (at best) that Peridot and Jasper already put Lapis through In the fusion, Lapis has the power to restrain them, to hurt them.... But not the power to be free and happy.
Ahh I knew I shouldn't have checked this thread when I woke up in the middle of sleeping! I want to respond but I am too tired right now to do it well, but I'm too !! to fall back to sleep. Good thinks and talks, everyone!!
I think I am going to take a break from the internet for awhile. When I say this is fucking with my head" I really mean this is fucking with my head.
So I decided to look into spoilers because Lapis really pisses me off and yeah this will be a tough episode to watch.
I think we're all in too deep for this particular episode, guys. Let's just say it was a good depiction of all the issues with a mutually abusive relationship and let it sink. I mean, I have plenty of XP as well on this particular subject, but I kinda just wanna fly from it rather than fighting it out. I really want [spoiler character] to turn up today, but I think after all that weight we all need a lighter episode.
Spoiler: Alone At Sea, abuse discourse I'm not willing to assert that Lapis is "better" or Jasper is "worse." Those are nonsense hierarchy categories of judging characters that serve no function for me; the characters are not real, so I don't need to ask myself "how much bad stuff do they do, can I afford the spoon drain?" Steven saved Lapis from the mirror, and with that act forged a connection and gratitude that convinced her to save him back---by using her powers to inflict on Jasper what had already been inflicted on Lapis. Jasper didn't poof Lapis. Didn't seal her in the mirror and leave her trapped for 5,000 years. Lapis taking out all those years on Jasper was the perpetuation of a cycle of harm. For Jasper, "it was Tuesday." She was just doing her job... her job that involves the capturing and interrogating, possibly with torture of an apparent rogue gem for the sake of her mission. And for the sake of her ambition/self-worth, which seems to be to prove her strength in combat against the greatest foes she can find. Rose Quartz was her goal, Garnet would have have been an embarrassment because she believed fusion was a "tactic for weak gems to make themselves stronger." That she had worth because she didn't need fusion to be strong. Looking at Peridot's insecurities, looking at what Sapphire and Ruby were like back then... I see no reason to assume that Jasper's self-confidence was any more whole or healthy than theirs. She probably clung to strength and combat prowess as her proof of worth. So Lapis' actions on the beach were a mix of desparation and vindication. To avoid direct combat by tricking Jasper. To finally have someone else to treat how she's felt all this time. To save Steven and pay him back without the discomfort of actually being around people. Just trapped, again, where no one else could harm her... but this time she qould be the one causing harm. Forcibly unfusing Malachite, Garnet's observation that they needed a little time apart... that was really fucking important. Because Steven's tactic with Peridot has been showing her that there are things of worth and happiness to life on earth. He's been getting the chance to push the same ideas on Lapis, and partly because it's him (the one who saved her and let her go free, the one who demanded nothing in return) she gave it an awkward shot depsite wanting nothing to do with it. If she's "better" now, it's not a measure of whether she's a good or bad person in amy fundamental way. It's a measure of her relative state of being. She is a little better emotionally than at any previous point in the show. She's been offered help and able to accept some of it. She's slowing to listen, she's asserting her boundaries and believing she doesn't need to destroy anybody to keep them. Jasper has had none of that. She fell through the cracks, she's gone without support or friendship. She's just gotten out from what, months of torture? She's had it pounded in her head that her strength, which was her worth back on homeworld (so much that a ship of Rubies was sent to bring her back?) is nothing compared to Lapis'. She wants that forever. She wants to fill the wounds with that external source of worth. The kind of thing that Pearl stole from Garnet, and Amethyst stopped her from continuing. Steven gave Lapis the realization that she didn't have to continue doing that, and she's come to realize thay she wants to continue... but maybe not as much as she wants freedom. In terms of who is whose abuser in the Lapis:Jasper relationship? I'd say 80:20. Lapis passed on what she'd felt previously, and a superficial reading says she's justified because Jasper captured and interrogated her. It's never justified. That's kind of the point the show is making. But it's a goodness for people to realize and stop and make amends. It is a horrific tragedy to say you are bad/worthless and must be destroyed. That's what the villains are. The Crystal Gems bubble their foes, not shatter them. And that, because they truly believe they don't have the means to do anything else for them.
That's one of the things that is calming me about the situation some. That it's a mutually abusive relationship. Which are important things to learn about. Especially when you're trying to recover from or defend yourself against other assholes. Life's complicated and shit and being a victim does not give you free reign to be an asshole. And that's hard. Everything is hard and confusing and awful.
TL;DR: Spoiler: Alone At Sea Lapis has had support and friendship. Please admire the cleverness of that part. I hope it was an intentional pun from the crewinverse.
Spoiler: Alone At Sea I wonder...if it'd been Jasper the Crystal Gems grabbed and Lapis who fell in the crack and Steven had been helping and befriending Jasper, how would this episode have played out? Would it be Lapis wanting to return to the fusion and Jasper saying no?
oh my god XD Also, can I make a general request to the thread to label what their spoilers are about? Like, if it's a leak or its spoilers for the thing Ian was talking about, or if it's new episode spoilers. I would like to avoid the former but still be able to discuss the latter.
Spoiler: More Lapis alone at sea Yeah, I agree. Steven does not have the perspective to help her with some of those flaws. He is in a position to help her believe that she can work on them, and to believe there is reason to work at it... which is a big and important thing she has needed. But she's going too need to get more perspective and aid than just his, if she's going to build the skills to not lash out in other times. I hope that Peridot's twitter last night hinted that she's listening to and talking with Lapis.
Spoiler: alone at sea You know, I don't think so? Lapis has been isolating herself, to greater or lesser degrees, and a lot of Steven trying to help her has been through encouraging her to reconnect with people. Because she's been removed from people, for ages, and Malachite was an example of just how good (and how awful) power in a toxic relationship could be. I think that, sort of like how Jasper ~becoming a crystal gem~ would entail learning to respect other types of strength and learning to unwork all of those things Homeworld taught, Lapis not being saved would be a different type of tragedy. Jasper is hunting strength, and power, because she feels powerless. I think if Lapis had fallen, we might not see her again. Or Steven would be looking for her, like he'd hunted for Malachite. Because she wants to be free, and for her it seems that her unhealthy default is being alone. I'm not sure if the temptation would have been as easy for her to resist without people reasserting that her boundaries are important, but I don't think she would have stuck around on Earth long enough to for her to think that she did miss Jasper. Bluh. These two are really bad for each other.
Spoiler: Alone at sea/Peridot Twitter yeah but peridot isn't the person to help Lapis either. Remember that she never apologized to lapis for ANYTHING. Someone who thinks that 'oh I changed, therefore you need to be my best friend forever and nothing I did was wrong' is NOT the person who will help Lapis.
