TFs: DARE TO BE STUPID

Discussion in 'Fan Town' started by itsAlana, Aug 28, 2015.

  1. Verily

    Verily surprised Xue Yang peddler

    There are definitely books on parenting teens, since that’s a whole new ballgame. I seem to remember Verity talking to a social worker and have the impression that she was a foster kid and it didn’t go well. She might totally already be familiar with attempts at How To Talk To Your Teenager(TM) but probably not from someone like Ultra Magnus, who’s quite comfortable and capable in a position of authority, has no reason to think of youth as an incapacitating cognitive condition, has enough power on his own spaceship to make real consequences happen, and is an alien robot.
     
    • Agree x 3
  2. Petra

    Petra space case

    Btw, the wiki said 3 years pass from her stowing away to last stand of the wreckers, and we know she spent 5 years with Stakeout after. If we assume she was around 16 when she stowed away, that makes her 19 when she faces the horrors of Garrus-9 and 24 or 25 when shes dying of radiation poisoning. I get the impression 2 or 3 years then pass before Requium? Does that sound right?

    Really surprised how her arc ended bc I didnt think she had living parents shed want to reunite with. Maybe a foster mom?
     
    • Agree x 1
  3. aetherGeologist

    aetherGeologist Well-Known Member

    I assumed her parents being alive was a result of Springer’s time travel
     
    • Winner x 2
  4. Verily

    Verily surprised Xue Yang peddler

    Ooohh! I need to reread because damn.
     
  5. Petra

    Petra space case

    Huh... I'm not sure how that'd work, but that's a very sweet idea.
     
  6. aetherGeologist

    aetherGeologist Well-Known Member

    ten.jpg cdrw104.png

    I will catch up at some point
     
    • Winner x 3
  7. Petra

    Petra space case

    Cyberverse remains really fun so far and I just wish the USA release was 2 eps a week like the canadian release, because I'm going to end up ridiculously behind.
     
    • Agree x 1
    • Witnessed x 1
  8. Loq

    Loq rotating like a rotisserie chicknen

    Wait
    Y'all
    Rung got declared "ornamental" in the main universe when the functionists couldn't figure out what he was, right

    THE THEOCRACY DECLARED ROBOT GOD MOTHERFUCKING ORNAMENTAL AND THIS IRONY DELIGHTS ME
     
    • Winner x 7
  9. aetherGeologist

    aetherGeologist Well-Known Member

    bumblescream is the superior ship name105.png
    9 - appreciation
    (text from here)
    froid106.jpg
    10- condolences
    ll108.png
    11 - the second lost light
    termin107.png
    12 - past of megatron
     
    • Winner x 4
  10. Petra

    Petra space case

    Rodimus is a way better leader than Optimus Prime and I feel like the endings of their respective series are just emphasizing that with how

    Optimus' big thing Slide is calling him out for is putting himself in the position of inspiring people to follow him which puts him in this position of making all the decisions while other people get hurt for it, whereas Rodimus' big speech in LL 24 is about how much stronger everyone is together and how great they all are. For Optimus Prime, Til All Are One places him at the top and it's a lonely position he doesn't really want but he is very bad at leaving it, whereas for Rodimus it's about everyone working together as a unit including himself, and being inspired by the people around him to be better.
     
    • Like x 1
  11. Petra

    Petra space case

    I mean Rodimus is also way more engaging and dynamic to me as a character because he's allowed to have actual flaws and yet still be a good person and a good leader, whereas OP feels like he's been rehashing this whole 'the top is lonely... but I am the final hope for my species!' bullshit for 4 million years. No you aren't, you moron! Everyone is, together. Rodimus gets that. JRO gets that! Hopefully the reboot gives me a good Optimus Prime.

    It's about Team Arcee. Team Soundwave. Team Aileron. Team Prowl. Even Team Starscream!
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
    • Agree x 4
    • Winner x 1
  12. Exohedron

    Exohedron Doesn't like words

    Yeah, I'm really eh about the "that's fascism" "but now is the time for fascism". It's so frustrating that Optimus even acknowledges some of his flaws, but then acts the same way anyway.
    Well, no, the worst part about Optimus Prime is that he's so fucking bland. Like, flawed characters aren't necessarily bad, but he has no personality whatsoever beyond his self-pity and his self-righteousness.
     
    • Agree x 4
  13. Petra

    Petra space case

    Unity doesn't have to be about elevating one person above the others and everyone following that person.
     
    • Agree x 1
  14. Hawkeguy

    Hawkeguy struggling to complete this thought

    john barber fails to understand the basic concept of teamwork
    or character writing
    tho it's kinda like in a tweet i've read yesterday. OP has become everything megs feared he would, while megs became everything OP (the bland self righteous ass) hoped he would.
     
    • Like x 4
  15. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    So, okay. I saw someone who was angry about the 'here's starscream's forged frame' as a plot development. I disagree, but hey, you do you, whatever. But one of the big arguments they made was that 'starscream doesn't need a new body to feel better, bumblebee is already his therapist.'

    Which. DISCOMFORT. And it stuck with me for a few days, but I couldn't figure out exactly why it was bothering me, because I love characters getting accidentally sucked into those roles. But I think I finally managed to untangle what was making me so uncomfortable, at this tumblr link, which I am going to lazily copy and paste beneath a spoiler cut.

    Hmm. The other day I saw a post that I disagreed strongly with, and I don't remember who said it and have no interest in engaging OP anyways, but there was a minor point incidental to their main argument that's been really sticking with me. I've been having trouble putting my finger on exactly what it was about it that bothered me, but I think maybe I've got it. (and this doesn't account for recent op/unicron developments, I'm still behind and not terribly happy about the characterization choices I do hear about)

    The point: Starscream doesn't need [thing] because ghost!Bumblebee is Starscream's therapist.

    My gut reaction: yes sort of but also NO ABSOLUTELY NOT

    Let me think. The most obvious thing that I can pick out is that making someone play therapist when they haven't signed up for that job or entered into it knowingly and willingly, that's... not ideal. Which I think in-universe (and in real life too) AND in terms of the expectations people consuming media lay on the characters, the creators, and other fans interacting with the original media).

    (as a tangent, transformers is extra interesting to me in that regard since mtmte/ll straight-up had a licensed, experienced professional step back from practicing, because he didn't think he was doing his job the way he should)

    But that can't be my entire reaction, because I am a HUGE sucker for characters being pulled into that sort of load-bearing support role without necessarily knowing what they're getting into or what they're doing. LOV that drama.

    So let's look at this situation specifically. Bumblebee was dragged into a leadership role he didn't want to occupy, spent a few thankless years shouldering that load on earth/cybertron, operated under a lot of stress, trying his best (but it never being enough to make everyone happy), and eventually dying. He comes back as a ghost that only Starscream can see, but Starscream just thinks he's going crazy under his own back-breaking stressful load.

    Do I want Starscream to get some kind of help and support? Yes, absolutely. Do I think Bumblebee is really good at providing that sort of support to people in need? Yes, I actually have a lot of loud, passionate thoughts about how Bumblebee got railroaded into a mass leadership position based on the strength of how he does in small groups, even though mass leadership makes him miserable. Bumblebee is an excellent supportive friend.

    But.... therapist. Hmm. Well, first off, I think that's massively unfair to Bumblebee, even though again, I'm a sucker for that scenario. Starscream doesn't think he's actually there, so even as they get friendlier, Starscream is never going to treat him with the respect or consideration due to an actual, real person (even for starscream levels of respect). Right from the start, they're both at a severe disadvantage for ANY constructive progress, because Starscream has an immediate reason to disregard anything Bumblebee says, and Bumblebee trying to make his arguments versus Starscream's starting point of 'my own brain is turning on me'.

    Bumblebee challenges Starscream's decisions and criticizes him directly on the regular, he definitely acts as a shoulder angel, and attacks directly on the emotional fronts Starscream absolutely does not want to discuss. He challenges Starscream's paranoia and self-sabotage. All very good things, I think. And he has the advantage of inside knowledge, since Starscream can't hide things from him and has confided to him about vulnerabilities and other painful things, since Bumblebee isn't real anyways.

    But calling Bumblebee Starscream's therapist... It feels like it places expectations of results on him. Epectations of personal dedication and focus. Especially if the argument is presented as that "therapist" being a reason Starscream doesnt need a different positive improvement in his life. If I write, say, starjack where Wheeljack plays a similar support role with Starscream, Wheeljack is there because of personal investment of some kind, he's made a decision to move in this direction, and he has the option of leaving. Bumblebee didn't have any kind of choice, and until whatever happened in OP went down, he hasn't had anywhere to go.

    I think that's my biggest problem. I'm a huge fan of characters being sucked into those emotion/baggage-heavy support roles, always love it. But calling a character a straught-up therapist when they didn't knowingly sign up for that kind of work makes me uneasy, and calling a character a literal therapist when they 1) didn't volunteer, and 2) can't leave is profoundly uncomfortable.

    Informally calling someone a therapist, that's a useful shorthand, and I've definitely done it. But I don't think I've ever used it as a justification for brushing aside something else positive in a character's life. That's the point, I think, where I'm no longer on board. That's the point where I get uncomfortable with the expectations on the characters, yes, but also with what that person is going to demand from other people creating that character, or interacting with them through fandom. It feels so strange to me.

    And I'm sure I'm overthinking the relationship between mental health and fandom, because I overthink everything all the time always. But this is a moral-policing-heavy fandom environment where that kind of analysis is understandable, I think. And even apart from whether or not I'm making any kind of wider point, this specific argument has been bothering me for a few days, and it's a relief to finally untangle what exactly was making me that uncomfortable.
     
    • Agree x 6
  16. Verily

    Verily surprised Xue Yang peddler

    I think of Rung saying something like, let me gently shift the conversation back to you, when it got off topic by being about Rung. I really liked it because that’s exactly right for therapy and Rung did a good job catching that instead of getting defensive or arguing. The session is about the patient. It can’t be about the therapist.

    Bumblebee can’t say goodbye at the end of the session and live the other part of his life. As far as I’m aware, there really is nothing else. If his conversations with Starscream can’t be about him too, then he has absolutely nothing that’s about him. I feel a little unhinged myself just thinking about what that would be like.

    If nothing else, the quality of the therapy is in for a serious decline over time.
     
    • Agree x 4
  17. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    When I wrote the ghost!starbee and ghost!starbladebee, I really wanted to make sure that a noticeable part of the situation was the stress of being a ghost with only one person who can see you, and who thinks you're a delusion. It's D: enough being told to your face over and over 'you don't actually exist', but the prospect of this being the nature of the only interpersonal relationship you can ever ever have again is a deliciously slow-burn flavor of stress/horror. It's such a unique flavor of interaction!! They're both a positive/supportive force in each other's lives, but also a MASSIVE source of stress for each other (which further torpedoes reasonable expectations of any sort of meaningful "therapy")

    Honestly I want to come back to the starbladebee scenario at some point and the sequel coldstars wrote, because getting Bumblebee that additional person in his life and forcing Starscream to acknowledge that Bumblebee is real is a super important development to me for both of them :p
     
    • Winner x 3
    • Agree x 2
  18. Verily

    Verily surprised Xue Yang peddler

    I love the way you do ghost!Bee, and that’s a big reason why.
     
    • Agree x 2
    • Like x 1
  19. KarrinBlue

    KarrinBlue Magical Girl Intern

    (also, starscream's new body is an entirely different problem than the stuff bee is helping with. if you are carrying a 50 pound weight on your back and a 30 pound weight on your arm, someone coming along to help lift the 50 pound weight does not mean it would not ALSO be helpful to ditch the one on your arm, should the opportunity arise.)

    (also i got someone in my transformers tabletop game group to read aaaall the robots-robots-everywhere fic. mostly by going 'hey you remember like one sundered star? that same author is writing transformers.' now she's posting quotes into the game group chat.)
     
    • Winner x 4
    • Agree x 3
  20. Petra

    Petra space case

    Thinking of Getaway, I think there's something to analyse about how his creation by the self-proclaimed 'good guys' as a soldier involuntarily dumped into a warzone before his eyes had even thawed as cannon fodder contributes to his later pathological insistence that a good enough end result can justify any number of atrocities along the way (and the way he completely collapses once he realizes the thing he was chasing was never even there to begin with).

    I've just started tugging at this string of thought, so I don't have a full analysis yet, but I'd be interested in hearing other people's takes. @spockandawe , you have any thoughts?
     
    • Agree x 5
    • Like x 2
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