The Computer Building Rave!

Discussion in 'Make It So' started by NevermorePoe, Jun 9, 2016.

  1. NevermorePoe

    NevermorePoe Nevermore

    Honestly, @PrinzVyper could answer that better than I could.
    I personally think that its worth it, but i'm not quite as well versed in that technical detail. I think it mostly depends on the power of the processor, rather than the socket type. I think that the difference in ram type is a bigger factor here, the newer sockets tend to use ddr4 ram which is faster than the old ddr3 ram.
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  2. PrinzVyper

    PrinzVyper "Cum cetera fallunt, ludere mortuus."

    Okay, let me try and break down the technobabble. Yes 2011-v3 socket CPUs tend to be a lot more powerful overall. All of those extra pins on the socket open up a lot more direct access to the CPU. Meaning you can use more powerful parts. Better faster RAM, quad channel DDR4, as opposed to dual channel DDR3, more channels, faster access to the data stored in RAM. More RAM overall. A max of 64GB, as opposed to a max of 32GB. More PCI lanes, this means you can do things like have an M.2 drive socket on the motherboard, without cutting down the performance of other cards. M.2 sockets fit a very, very fast kind of Solid State Drive. SSDs as I have mentioned before are fast, I boot Windows 10 in about 15 seconds flat on mine. M.2 drives are much faster then that! They are also smaller and use less power. More potential for a better video card down the road, or say dual SLI ( two video cards used as one ). Last but not least by any means, cores, 2011-v2 sockets support more CPU cores. LGA 1150 and 1151 sockets only support 4 cores, whereas LGA 2011 sockets currently start at 6 cores, and go up to 10 cores. Think of each core as its own CPU, they all work together to do the work they are given. Intel CPUs take this a step further and do something known as hyper-threading. This means on some jobs each core can do twice the work. The best analogy I can give here is, think of a car's engine, a four cylinder engine car will get you from point A to point B, but it is necessarily light in weight. If you add say a trailer to that car, like a game to a CPU, you will still get to point B, but probably not a highway speed. A six cylinder or even an eight cylinder engine will pull that trailer a lot faster, with less effort. Higher core count in a CPU doesn't mean to much in games right now, but, and here I need to digress a bit. Microsoft uses an interface into your hardware called Direct X, its kind of like the transmission in that car I mentioned, it handles the interface between the hardware and software. Like a transmission does between the engine and drive wheels. Currently the most often used Direct X versions a 9.0c and 11.3. 11.3 is a lot better at dealing with multi core CPUs then 9.0c, but it's still not great. Microsoft is due to release Direct X 12 any time now. and manufactures have been gearing up for it in a big way. Direct X 12 makes extensive use of multi-core CPUs, the more the better, and handles the the use of your graphics processor, GPU, a lot more efficiently. This means that going forward you will start to see games that use Direct X 12, and eventually the older versions will be dropped. The Video card you mentioned in a earlier post, the nVidia 1050 Ti, is a Direct X 12 compatible card BTW. Now you should get a CPU that you can reasonably afford. My concern is your motherboard, a 2011-v3 socket motherboard will give you much more upgrade potential down the road whereas with an 1151 socket motherboard you are locked in at a max of 4 cores. Though I will admit you can get an 1151 with DDR4 and M.2, you are locked in with a 4 core CPU and no real upgrade path.

    So to sum up, if you go with an LGA 1151 board and CPU you will save money right now, but will have to buy an all new motherboard, CPU, and possibly RAM, if you want to upgrade down the road a bit. If you go with an LGA 2011 based setup you will get a higher performing CPU, better, faster RAM and more overall RAM capacity, and be able to slot in a much faster CPU later.

    Hope this helps, if not, ask and I will try and answer.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
    • Like x 1
  3. Elanor Pam

    Elanor Pam ohshit waddup

    I see! No, that is definitely much more helpful than anything google got me. Thanks for taking the time to answer in so much detail.

    Edit: I'm doing some research, and the cheapest 2011-v3 mobos I can find are the Gigabyte GA-X99-UD3P and the Asus X99-A. My brain is full of cotton candy and I can't seem to figure out which is better. I've never had a gigabyte mobo before, either, are they good?

    Edit: I'm on comparing the two but as I said-- brain, cotton candy-- the main difference between them seem to be that gigabyte has zero ratings and that frightens me? The gigabyte one is about 100 cheaper, but if it's too much worse i'll go for the Asus one. There's also a gigabyte gaming one around the same price range as the Asus, but idk what the difference between a normal mobo and a gaming mobo is, and whether I want one when I mostly play FFXIV. Anyone has a tip here?,CVnG3C,78KhP6/ this is the comparison page
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
  4. PrinzVyper

    PrinzVyper "Cum cetera fallunt, ludere mortuus."

    I haven't had much good luck with Gigabyte motherboards. In my opinion the two brands I like best are ASUS and MSI. The ASUS board you linked to hits all the sweet spots. LGA 2011-v3, 64GB RAM capacity, M.2 socket, and lots of SATA and USB connectors. The BIOS will give you a lot of options if you chose to use them, but has an EZ-Mode that handles most of the settings for you. My rule of thumb on motherboards has always been, "If you aren't spending at least $200 on a motherboard, you will probably be sorry later."

    I am guessing that you are looking at building a new PC as opposed to buying one? I do have a few hints here: Don't overlook the Power Supply! Doing some basic calculations you will probably need at least a 500 watt PSU. I always add about 200-300 watts over and above what I absolutely require This leaves room for things like cooling, powering all those USB devices, future expansion, and cool add-ons. So if this were my build I would be looking at a 700-800 watt PSU. You will need to leave room in your budget for a copy of Windows. Windows 10 Home OEM, will run about $100, and Windows 10 Pro OEM will run about $140. The OEM version is made for system builders, isn't portable from one machine to another, and Microsoft doesn't offer much support, but it's a lot less expensive. Get a good PC Case, a badly designed case will turn a 4-hour project into 10-hour nightmare. Think about cooling when you buy your case. Does it have good airflow? How many cooling fans does it come with? How many will fit in the case? What size are the fans? Does it have a dust filter for the intake fans? Dust is your enemy! After a while house-dust can and does become conductive and lead to "mystery problems." So far the best, easiest case I have ever built a system in is the one I have now, its the Phanteks Enthoo Pro M. Its pricey but the ease of the build, and the features made it worthwhile to me.

    Good luck on your build!

    Edit to Add: Also of you are buying Windows remember if usually comes on a DVD-ROM, and you will need to, at least temporally, hook up a DVD-ROM drive in order to install Windows. If you want to watch DVD movies on your PC, or even Blu-Ray, you need to plan for that, either get an external drive, or buy a case with an external 5 1/4 inch drive bay. This type of drive bay is getting scarce on a lot of newer cases. On the matter of drive bays, you need at least 2, 3 1/2 inch internal drive bays. One for your mechanical dive, and one for expansion later. Most new cases have an SSD drive bay as well, but if you are planing to use an M.2 drive on your motherboard, you don't even really need that.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
    • Like x 1
  5. PrinzVyper

    PrinzVyper "Cum cetera fallunt, ludere mortuus."

    Something to consider: SSD drives, like mechanical drives eventually wear out. With mechanical drives it's wear and tear on the moving parts. SSDs however a a bit different, on an SSD drive each block of memory can only be written to a set number of times, after this limit is reached the memory block gets flaky, and eventually fails outright. There are ways to deal with this problem, and manufactures do build extra capacity into the drive, thus the firmware on the drive itself can map out the bad blocks, and you will never know the difference. Still, why temp fate? The file on your Windows PC that is the most written to is called the "Page File." Windows swaps data from RAM out to the Page File and back all the time. In order to help prolong the life of your SSD, I think its a good idea to move that Page File off of your SSD and on to your mechanical drive. Windows always wants to put the Page File on drive "C:\" but it will be just as happy on any other drive. There will be however a small performance hit, but I'd rather lose a couple of milliseconds here and there, then have to prematurely replace an expensive drive, and move all that data. The process is fairly straightforward, but it involves a number of steps and a reboot. If anyone is interested I will post a walk-through of the process.

    Happy Computing!
    • Like x 2
  6. Elanor Pam

    Elanor Pam ohshit waddup

    Oh dang, that's a lot of awesome shit! My mind is swirling a bit, so let me see what I can answer to here.

    First I'm relieved you're confirming the Asus mobo. I was leaning to it as well as it's a brand I've had mostly positive experiences with. Also yeah, I'm definitely building it myself, as prices in my country are ultra jacked up and will be even more so for a pre-built. Thanks for the tip on power supplies, by the way! My current one is 450 watt, so I suppose it'll have to go as well. I've got Windows 10 Pro from the free update campaign, and I think it's still valid for a couple hardware changes-- worst comes to worst I could probably deactivate it on my current pc before reactivating it on my next one. My current case is a Thermaltake V3 Black, it's pretty ventilated but the wires get pretty crowded within, and the frontal audio jack started getting white-noisey a little more than 1 year after purchase. I'll look into your suggestion, hopefully they sell it here (and hopefully the front audio won't crap out as well). And I do have a dvd-rom drive in perfect working condition, so if i turn out to need a new copy of windows I should be fine.

    Also many many thanks for the SSD drive tips-- Once I'm done with the setup I'll definitely want that walkthrough.

    Edit: aw crap, they don't sell Phanteks in Brazil.
    Edit again: here's a list of case builders actually marketed in Brazil:
    • Aerocool
    • Casemall
    • Coletek
    • Coolermaster
    • Corsair
    • Fortrek
    • Intel
    • Leadership
    • Maxxtro
    • Multilaser
    • Nilko
    • NZXT
    • PcTop
    • Thermaltake
    • Vcom
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2016
    • Like x 1
  7. PrinzVyper

    PrinzVyper "Cum cetera fallunt, ludere mortuus."

    Alright, since you are still in the planning phase, There are a few questions we need answered: The 2011-v3 CPUs don't seem to come with stock cooling solutions, and to be honest, stock cooling systems aren't that good anyway.

    1. CPU cooling, air or water? Both have pros and cons.

    Air Cooling:
    Pros: Decent cooling performance. Insignificant chance of liquid leakage. ( the heat pipes contain liquid in a low pressure condition, its how they work. )
    Cons: The better they perform the bigger, heavier, and more bulky they get. They tend to be noisy. They need very good case airflow to be effective. Some can be too big for a given case. Big ones can block you RAM slots. They put a lot of weight on your motherboard, and can actually twist the motherboard a bit in a tower configuration, though this is rare.

    Water Cooling:
    Pros: Very good performance, not very bulky. They don't put a lot of weight on your motherboard. All-In-One units come in standard sizes, and fit in most cases. Leakage rates are very low with quality brands. They don't tend to interfere with other components on the motherboard.
    Cons: There is always some possibility of leakage. The pump can fail. The radiators fan(s) can fail.

    Also since you are in Brazil I don't know what brands of coolers to steer you toward. but here are my favorite brands in order.

    1. Noctua
    2. Deepcool
    3. Cooler Master

    1. Arctic
    2. Corsair
    3. NZXT

    Once this question is answered, the next step is to spec out the best cases that will fit your CPU cooler.

    Edit to Add: Price/Performance is about the same with either solution. Low-end air is less expensive then low-end water, but the price evens out in mid-range. Example: An Arctic 120 All-in-One water cooler runs about $61, and can handle a 250 watt CPU. A Noctua NH-D14 runs about $67 and it maxes out at 220 watts TDP.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  8. Elanor Pam

    Elanor Pam ohshit waddup

    Ooh, I've been looking at coolers, yes, and we have both Corsair and CoolerMaster here. I think I'll try for water cooling in this build, if only for the sake of a silent experience-- all my previous ones had air coolers, and cleaning those were always a pain, too. (Although I did find water coolers by CoolerMaster-- are they not as good as corsair ones?)
  9. PrinzVyper

    PrinzVyper "Cum cetera fallunt, ludere mortuus."

    I honestly don't know, CoolerMaster AIOs tend to be pricey, and I was unable to find anything mentioning their warranty. Corsair is famous for its 5 year warranty on its AIO units.
  10. PrinzVyper

    PrinzVyper "Cum cetera fallunt, ludere mortuus."

    Okay a water cooler, next question, what size radiator? 120, 140, 240, or 280? So single fan 120mm, single fan 140mm, dual fan 120mm, or dual fan 140mm? It makes a difference when choosing a case.
  11. Elanor Pam

    Elanor Pam ohshit waddup

    I.... actually have no idea? I mean, I'm going for an i7-6800k CPU, I have no idea what it'll need. I suppose compact would be nice, but more cooling action is also nice....?

    And Corsair and Coolermaster water coolers seem to be priced almost the same, with coolermaster slightly cheaper here. Corsair Hydro Series H45 and Coolermaster Seidon 120V seem to be the cheapest options.
  12. NevermorePoe

    NevermorePoe Nevermore

    Oh! Here's a tip I found while deciding whether I wanted to do water cooling or not. Run the computer with Only the water cooler plugged in overnight before you actually connect the system for use, that way you can find any leaks beforehand.

    Also, spring for a non conductive coolant if you can, it might not remain non conductive forever, but i've always felt it was worth it to go the safer route with computer components, especially if you've never done liquid cooling... Which I have not.
  13. PrinzVyper

    PrinzVyper "Cum cetera fallunt, ludere mortuus."

    A 120mm fan based cooler is more than adequate if you don't plan on massive overclocking. It tool me a while to find the H45, it will do the job though. So will the CoolerMaster. I would buy a tube of good Thermal Paste, because I don't trust either the pre-applied paste on the Corsair, or the stuff that comes with the CoolerMaster, my favorite is Arctic MX-5, but any paste that is both high-performance and non-conductive will do the job.

    @QuotableRaven Is correct you should run the AIO unit outside of your old case in on a safe surface, for about 24-48 hours to check for leakage. As for non-conductive coolant, AIO units usually ship with distilled water as coolant, and the coolant cannot be changed. Distilled water is non-conductive, but like most liquids, it becomes conductive over time. The passages it must run through are metal, and over time the liquid will pick up ions and metal particles, this is unavoidable.

    I will look at cases and see what recommendations I can throw your way. :)
  14. Elanor Pam

    Elanor Pam ohshit waddup

    Okay! Thank you so much for the help, guys, I'm not sure I would be able to handle thinking about all of this on my own at this juncture. And yeah, I don't really intend to mess with overclocking, I'm too much of a wuss for that.

    I'm guessing then that there's a way to power/run the cooler outside of a case? Because I can't picture how that would work. I mean, all the coolers I've worked with were powered by connecting them to the mobo...

    The thing about the water becoming conductive, does that mean I should replace the cooler after some time?

    Edit: I couldn't find the Arctic MX-5, but I did find an MX-4. It sure is pricey! Apparently Thermaltake also does paste, though, are they good? And are Coolermaster pastes better than the pre-applied ones?
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016
  15. PrinzVyper

    PrinzVyper "Cum cetera fallunt, ludere mortuus."

    Okay, to power the AIO cooler outside of your case you will need a long 4pin fan power "Y" cable. An example is linked HERE for about $5. You connect it to a motherboard fan connector. Then run it outside your case, then connect the pump and radiator fan to it.

    For the next part, let's talk about risk a bit. Yes, a water-cooler has the possibility of leaking, and it can leak conductive liquid. Its a low risk, you take bigger chances getting out of bed. Then there is showering, cooking breakfast, and crossing the street. For more computer specific examples: An engineer once put mechanical hard drives into perspective for me: "Imagine a 747 jet, flying at mach-4, 6feet (2meters) above the ground, and counting the blades of grass as it flies. That, to scale, is what a hard drive does, I'm surprised they work at all!" Look at your electricity service, a quick power spike, too fast for your surge suppressor, or a prolonged brownout, can fry your power-supply. Then it has the possibility of frying everything connected to it. Nevertheless, I have a 17 year-old hard drive, that still runs fine. I also lived in a rural area with crappy power, and had 3 power-supplies fail because of it, but the power problems were contained within the PSU with no damage to the rest of the machine, I got damned lucky. Then look at Corsair's warranty, its 5 years. You can Google "Corsair water cooling warranty" if you do, you will find many reports of Corsair replacing equipment damaged by the unlikely event of a leakage. I can't see them offering to pay for damaged equipment if this was a common problem, they would go bankrupt. I regard running the new AIO outside your old machine a day or so as a sensible precaution, kind of like looking both ways when crossing the street. If there is a manufacturing fault its better to find out before you go to the trouble of installing it.

    I hit the wrong key, oops, I meant MX-4.

    I will stick to my guns on this one. MX-4 is my favorite thermal compound. Its easy to dispense, it spreads well as pressure is applied from your cooler. It is both non-conductive, non-capacitive, and fills all the small voids between cooler and CPU heat spreader very well. Finally it has excellent performance in transferring heat, it is one of the best thermal compounds being sold. A 4gram syringe of MX-4 is enough for 2 or 3 applications, and costs about $7, link HERE.

    I'm still looking at cases :)
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2016
  16. Elanor Pam

    Elanor Pam ohshit waddup

    The MX-4 costs 84 reais here, and I can't even order it from amazon's us store unless I'm buying $25 worth of stuff sans shipping, which would actually run more expensive than its brazilian price. I hate that you guys get all the nice toys.
  17. NevermorePoe

    NevermorePoe Nevermore

    I actually ran into the same problem trying to buy the same compound here!

    I considered being an intermediary for you, but I'm pretty sure it would cost more to ship parts to you than it would to buy them.
  18. PrinzVyper

    PrinzVyper "Cum cetera fallunt, ludere mortuus."

    Okay, the features you are mainly looking for in a thermal compound are. Non-conductive, non-capacitive, non-curing, and with good reviews. One note, I really do not like Thermaltake thermal compound, this is just a personal preference based on having to clean the stuff off when changing coolers.
  19. Elanor Pam

    Elanor Pam ohshit waddup

    Yeah, it undoubtedly would. Story of my life, pretty much; shipping costs more than the item, and then it sits for 3 months in customs.

    I see-- I'll look for that and see what my options are. A quick search brings up CoolerMaster Thermal Fusion 400 as an option (often from people in forums that can't buy the MX-4) and it costs 50 reais, what do you say?
  20. PrinzVyper

    PrinzVyper "Cum cetera fallunt, ludere mortuus."

    I've never used it but the reviews look good. I notice it comes with an applicator, throw it away. There are much better ways to apply the compound then trying to spread it around, doing that is sure to introduce air bubbles between the CPU heat spreader and your cooler. The 2 best methods I have found are putting a pea sized drop on the heat spreader, then slowly and evenly applying pressure with the cooler. The other method is the same, but with a line of compound instead. The object is to let the cooler do the work of spreading the compound, this will minimize air getting trapped between the CPU heat spreader and the cooler.

    Edit to Add: There is such a thing as too little compound, you need at least a pea sized sized amount. If you use a bit too much don't worry about it. Its both non-conductive and non-capacitive, any extra will squeeze out with no harm done, except clean-up if you change the cooler.

    Also most big coolers come with thumb-sized screws to attach the cooler, it is important to only tighten the cooler hand-tight, and even hand-tight is a scary amount of pressure. Do NOT tighten your cooler with a screwdriver! I have broken a CPU socket that way, its a bad day when you break your own toys. :)
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
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