there are no rules in kintsugi

Discussion in 'That's So Meta!' started by fake and gay, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. fake and gay

    fake and gay Member

    fuck waiting to feel better, not like anyone else did or like that will ever happen regardless


    tl;dr call it a rule and state that plainly or stop trying to enforce it like one, god damn

    you wonder why people think you put off those untrustworthy authority figure vibes, this is why
    • Witnessed x 2
  2. palindromordnilap

    palindromordnilap Well-Known Member

    This does, in fact, fit under the one rule that's in the login agreement, IMO.
  3. fake and gay

    fake and gay Member

    is this a fact or is it YO? pick one

    IMO it does not, "don't treat other users like trash" does not in any way shape or form easily translate to "content warnings are mandatory", and if you expect people to arrive at that conclusion themselves i'm sorry but at the very least one person has failed that check and it sure as fuck wasnt my fault

    we need more specific guidelines if this is how we're going to treat people who step over the mirage we have currently
    • Agree x 1
  4. Xitaqa

    Xitaqa Secretly awesome

    I feel like OP is being asked to do, or allow, a thing as an accommodation for other users. On the face of it, that doesn't seem unreasonable. To say that it is an outgrowth of the One Rule pings me as legit, but I can see how there could be reasonable argumentation on that topic.

    But putting that aside,

    1. A request has been made for the accommodation of other users to avoid triggering them,
    and a willingness was expressed to do the thing without OP's involvement

    2. An explanation was offered as to why this request was being made/why action is being taken, because respecting other users is explicitly part of the One Rule

    3. OP thinks they shouldn't have to do the thing bc it hasn't been called out as a specific example of the One Rule in practice?

    Sorry, but I gotta disagree. I'd be interested in hearing where my reasoning fails, which is why I numbered the above.
  5. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    So, what I mean when I say there aren't "rules" is that there's no if-x-then-y going on. There's judgment calls and weighing of factors and trying to respond to situations, but also to people. So, for instance, you'll note that the post in question was, last I checked, not edited to have a spoiler, and that the account that posted it still has the ability to edit posts. Why? Because if someone's clearly freaking out and suicidal, that is a really bad time to push back aggressively at them. I'd certainly like to see things like that have spoiler tags, and I don't see what about the spoiler tag is a problem... But I can also deal with "okay so what if we wait a bit before trying to sort that out".

    And that's sort of the point: There is no "guaranteed removal of privileges". Some people have only those technical restrictions they're comfortable with. Some people have some technical restrictions they dislike, but they accept that this is a workaround for their impulse-control problems. Some people are pretty unhappy about the restrictions imposed, and we'll totally agree that the restrictions suck, but we're not willing to completely disregard the distress happening with other users. It's case-by-case and we do our best to find ways to improve things or adapt to specific users and their emotional needs. And since we have a lot of mentally-ill people here, that can be pretty hard, and pretty error-prone.

    There isn't a "specific user requirement" here. There's the fact that someone saw an unspoilered discussion of suicide-planning and got triggered, and it was in a public thread lots of people read, so we tried to find ways to change things so that we wouldn't have lots more people getting really upset by the thing. Suggest spoiler tag? "No." Okay, so I tried editing the post to add it, because most people will let that stand. When f&g edited their post back, I thought about the amount of technical stuff I'd have to do to try to actually prevent them from making that text visible to people, and concluded that (1) it would be really hard (2) they'd be super upset, (3) therefore maybe let's try something else.

    The question I had, and still have, is "why is it a problem to put that under a content warning?" From my point of view, if I find out that people are finding content really upsetting, and they ask for a spoiler tag around it, it's pretty harmless to me to put a spoiler tag on it, and it lets them know that their experiences are valid and someone cares whether or not they're hurt by a thing. And I would tend to regard a flat refusal as pretty dismissive of their concerns.

    Thought experiment for you: Imagine that, instead of it being "a mod", it had been just some random user, with no power to edit posts, etcetera. And they'd just said "hey, this is really triggering, could you spoiler stuff like that so I don't see it unexpectedly". Would you regard that as a reasonable request for them to make? Would you be likely to go along with it?

    EDIT: Also, F&G might have a minority opinion here, in which case they're probably gonna feel dogpiled pretty fast, so folks, I'd appreciate it if people made an effort to be understanding or supportive, or just waited and let them respond, or something? Because this is someone who started this out really upset, and they have some legit complaints, and I don't want them feeling dogpiled.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
    • Agree x 1
  6. Birdy

    Birdy so long

    "hey could you maybe do this one thing that would help a bunch of people feel better?"

    • Agree x 3
  7. fake and gay

    fake and gay Member

    my god @Xitaqa did you even check out the original thread this happened in
  8. fake and gay

    fake and gay Member

    i know youre upset about other shit so i'll let this slide but for real this is a complete strawman and helps absolutely no one
  9. Birdy

    Birdy so long

    this thread is going to turn into a garbage fire within a page, why even start with the pretext of a rational discussion?
  10. fake and gay

    fake and gay Member

    well, if people keep commenting things like that out of the blue it might

    i'm just going to keep on saying thats not really appreciated
  11. Birdy

    Birdy so long

    i thought you were gonna give me a fight. bored now.
  12. fake and gay

    fake and gay Member

    i'm not here to fight

    i'm here to be suicidal and to point out this massive error in the current system that i stumbled upon completely by accident
  13. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    I'm really really concerned that this is going to turn into piling onto a person who is, to my knowledge, still actively suicidal.

    Let's everyone please try to be calm, and I really really hope that @fake and gay is either feeling better now or willing to think about accessing some resources. I have others if needed.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
    • Agree x 1
    • Useful x 1
  14. fake and gay

    fake and gay Member

    question for you, @seebs

    would there ever be any case in which someone could post heavily triggering subject matter in a public thread and be allowed to refuse to cw it and to refuse ~help (or whatever else word you wont nitpick at) from mods?
  15. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Maybe? Context is complicated and large. That's part of why we've tended to frame things in terms of guidelines rather than rules; because we don't want to do the thing where something's a good idea 90% of the time and if we don't do it the other 10% people get mad because we're Not Following The Rule.

    So, like, if you'd posted that in a personal vent thread rather than a shared one, we might still have asked you to spoiler it, but I wouldn't have even tried editing the thing. If you'd posted it directed to someone else who was suicidal, it'd probably have disappeared to the pear wiggler immediately and we'd have followed up with you afterwards. Or something. Context, circumstances, specific people.
  16. rigorist

    rigorist On the beach

    So. I'll "argue" with you ("You" being seebs).

    The claim there are "no rules" is not true in a couple of senses.

    First, there is a "no spam" rule. If you believe an account is a spam bot, you will not approve the registration. This is such a basic thing that you don't even think of it as a "rule". It is just something you do.

    Second, you have a specific definition of "rule" that is not shared by everybody. Your definition appears to be something like a causation atom: "If user does X, then Staff does Y to the user" with no discretion or recourse. But I don't think everyone shares that definition. Some people view social norms as rules. Some people view any restrictions whether imposed by the software or not as rules. Some people will find that any sort of principle for exercising discretion is a rule. So your claim there are "no rules" is true only to the extent other people share your definition of what a rule is.
    • Agree x 13
    • Informative x 4
  17. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    I agree with Rigs, and I think that's part of why reading the charter and the One Rule thing is important, because it helps set a base for common vocabulary.

    I feel like this is said in the thing, but I could see it being made more explicit in the way Rigs just did.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
    • Agree x 3
  18. fake and gay

    fake and gay Member

    as you kindly offered me some perspective earlier, I'd like to do the same now

    I'm sure you're aware of the spoons metaphor, my refusal to spoiler anything had nothing to do with wanting to swing at anyone or be stubborn for stubbornness' sake (at that point in time), I just wanted to get my feelings out and move on because I had about half a spoon left

    honestly I hadn't even considered content warning for anything when I posted because I never had a reason to think I should

    if I had known content warning in general purpose vent threads was necessary, I wouldn't have posted at all because the extra steps wouldn't have been worth it

    it was when my things were touched without permission that I dug my heels in because not only was it shit timing for me to have to deal with but this expectation was entirely new information and I am not a mind reader and I am terrified of all the other things I must have missed that seem so obvious to everyone else that will land me in post moderation hell over a mistake so I will sit here and debate with you until there are clearer guidelines because again

    why yes I'm reaching very dangerously deep in my pockets for bits of silver still left in them to continue this but I don't really care about my health at this point and the ride never ends. yeehaw

    this may not be an accurate read but it seems like you're dodging what I'm asking you pretty hard

    you're offering situations I never asked about to answer a question about an entirely different one so you can .... avoid agreeing with an absolute because that's your nature? whatever is happening here, I don't like it

    rules can be flexible, you know. they can depend on context

    you're telling me you have a general expectation that people cw their posts when appropriate and will moderate to reflect that expectation regardless of any OP's feelings on the matter

    just fucking write it down somewhere in plainspeak for us autists so we dont get trapped by things that are mostly unspoken
    • Agree x 3
    • Informative x 2
  19. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    The biggest part of moderation on this site is trying to work with people to keep these ones from hurting those ones accidentally. I asked you to please do a thing, I didn't scold you for not knowing because you didn't do it knowingly.

    But you refused to work with me to prevent harm that was actively happening to others even when it was explained. I'm still wanting to work with you because you matter just as much as all the other people I'm also trying to help.
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  20. fake and gay

    fake and gay Member

    allow me to correct you on what actually happened

    >i make the post
    >you come along with a "please" and my own feelings as an afterthought
    >i say no, because i'm under the impression it's optional and i want to be left alone
    >seebs edits my post without a word
    >you should be able to follow along on your own now i think
    • Agree x 1
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