there are no rules in kintsugi

Discussion in 'That's So Meta!' started by fake and gay, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. Salted Earth


    My brainbugs won't shut up about this so I want to state for the record that I had no clue this turned into a trolling attempt. I just saw something which might have been contributing to someone's distress and eventually managed to comment on it. I thought it was all genuine. I hope everyone feels better soon.
    • Witnessed x 9
  2. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    i need to interrupt this to point out that, to this day, i have no idea at all why a person would do that when translating. it makes sense if you're translating an idiom that can't be translated to a word. it does not make sense when you can say "x means y".
    • Like x 6
    • Agree x 1
    • Witnessed x 1
  3. Salted Earth


    they do it for the memes, seebs
    • Agree x 6
    • Winner x 2
  4. Pheelog

    Pheelog The Phee-Phee Police

    I was actually just about to respond that, looking at my first line, it's salty and as Bel mentioned, aggressive. And I'm sorry for that, especially since you were hurt by all of this. As well, I respect your wishes not to go into PMs about this. If you want, this can be moved to a TCHGB thread, but I feel like I wouldn't be able to share enough to actually try to mend things.

    I did not expect Seebs to relay this information without first gathering permission from those involved, because once again, I would genuinely like to try to figure things out. If other people were willing to do that, fabulous. If not, then they can at least take comfort in the fact that as it stands, I don't think I really want to be here anymore in the long term. But in the spirit of reassuring people, I did list several options that I could take. My interest in making a new account is not to slip back into Kintsugi undetected as a lurking threat, it's so that I'm no longer a click away from seeing myself at certain moments in my life.

    The only person that I'd be trying to cover up what I've done from is myself, basically. And not to pretend it doesn't exist, but because I had a bad moment in private on one account, that was brought up in private on this account, that I would rather not see - private or otherwise - on attempt three.

    Also, if I do return, I'm realizing that moderation may be good idea because I have a distinct habit of inserting things that really ought not to be there.
    • Witnessed x 4
  5. rigorist

    rigorist On the beach

    DeBord was right.
    • Like x 1
  6. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I think you might find it useful to just take a step back to a higher level of abstraction:

    You were being highly critical and sometimes sort of insulting. You were sorta attacking people. That's a thing people can be upset about, and you don't have to know which people, or how exactly they were upset about it, for the connection from "I attacked people" to "people were hurt" to be apparent. And I know you were thinking of it as "defending", and I was sorta harsh about that, but I think that distinction really is important.

    Honestly, that's 90% of all the serious drama we have on this site. "My friend is hurt, I must defend them, the only way to defend a person is by attacking someone else for them." If people stopped doing that, we'd have small conflicts which died out quickly and were generally replaced by reconciliation. We've had that, in fact, on many occasions! But it only works if people can avoid the temptation to react by attacking people.

    It really is that simple: If you are trying to hurt someone, you are probably making things worse.

    Also, just as a personal bit of advice: Seeing your past self is often painful, but it is very, very, close to being essential for healthy development. I've never seen "don't be reminded of who I once was" work out. That continuity is what lets you track your direction of growth over time and come to terms with the things you're not happy with. You can't not have a dark side. You can either have it and be aware of it, or have it and not be aware of it. Only one of them gives you any control over how much people get hurt.

    So I strongly recommend keeping that continuity and coming to terms with it.
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
    • Agree x 1
  7. Pheelog

    Pheelog The Phee-Phee Police

    I'll do my best to keep that all in mind. Regarding that last point, however, it's less Dark Side and more Bad Moment. I would consider this to be an example of a dark side, and one that, while I need to work on, I don't want to distance myself from and say doesn't exist. Because that's just not true.

    Hence why I have no qualms against stating who I was. If it helps anyone, if I return, I give full permission for this account to become Old-Pheelog and new account to become Pheelog.

    I just don't trust myself on an account where a fresh, Bad Moment is a literal click away. Maybe in time, after I've distanced myself from it so I can examine it.
    • Witnessed x 2
  8. Hobo


    The translators are muryoku.

    TRANSLATOR'S NOTE: Muryoku means incompetent.
    • Like x 15
    • Winner x 2
  9. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    I think it's important for people to know that pheelog has been putting a lot of effort into making amends, debugging, and figuring out ways to go forward well in some extensive pm conversations. I'm grateful to them for that and I don't want anyone to think they aren't trying, which is the most important thing.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
    • Like x 12
  10. Existrum

    Existrum Member

    The problem arises when you aren't trying to hurt someone, but are too emotional to realize that's what you are doing. I know a person who frequently says and does things that infuriate me, and I want them to stop, but every time I try to think how to tell them how infuriating they're being, I realize my words will do nothing but hurt them. I didn't used to have this level of awareness of other people's feelings - especially the feelings of people I'm angry at - so I can hardly expect other people to have it without them visibly demonstrating that they do. On top of that, I'm sure there are plenty of times that I've failed to be aware of hurt that I'm causing with my actions even though I have achieved at least some awareness.
    • Witnessed x 3
    • Like x 1
  11. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    To that end, we're thinking of composing a very general, non-mandatory "how to do a rassel" faq. Chiomi and I will keep you updated and hope it might be helpful to some people who would like to utilize it.

    (I cannot stress enough how much this future thing is meant to be a resource, not a rule set.)
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
    • Like x 4
    • Useful x 3
  12. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    That's a pretty good point. I just sort of assume that people who are yelling insults are at least vaguely aware of the general outcome of yelling insults.
  13. Exohedron

    Exohedron Doesn't like words

    That would help with most of my concerns. Thank you.
  14. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Okay so I've been thinking, and I think this is what I'm getting at when I say "not a rule".

    The intent is not to force people to do certain things. Like, obviously in general personal insults are a problem. But we have in the past let someone say "no, I really need to say this, it's important to me" and said "okay, fair enough, it's your call".

    We're not saying "here are things you can't ever do". There's some things that I'd be really, really, unlikely to leave alone. Like, if you wanted to post someone else's home address, and they objected? Yeah, I'd probably side with them. Probably. But you know, some day, someone could conceivably come up with a counterexample compelling enough that I was willing to say "okay, you have a good enough reason that I'm gonna leave that be".

    That's what I mean when I say they "aren't rules". They're defaults or guidelines or suggestions. Things where we're pretty sure doing things a given way will produce better results.

    This place is full of people who have been denied agency, and I don't want to deny people agency. Like, look how angry people get about even the suggestion that someone is being denied agency, even temporarily. The difference is, a lot of people are saying "how dare you do that without a written rule explaining the thing". My feeling is more "how dare you do that, at all, ever".

    I will totally step in and edit or delete a post in the short term to prevent harm. But if people really feel strongly about a thing, I will often say "okay", and let them do the thing. Even if I think it's harmful.

    Being allowed to decide whether or not you are going to harm people is an absolutely essential component of deciding not to harm people.

    If you don't actually get to make that decision, you can't make the "right" decision any more than you can make the "wrong" decision. And in a community full of people who have been prevented from making any decisions at all by their abusers, I place a huge additional weight on letting them make decisions. Even "wrong" decisions.
    • Informative x 4
  15. Pheelog

    Pheelog The Phee-Phee Police

    I think that would be very helpful for numerous people, self included.
    • Agree x 3
  16. Xitaqa

    Xitaqa Secretly awesome

    I am super in favor of providing resources, presented as such. "Here are some things that can help you navigate some potential pitfalls. Here are some things that can help you deal with trouble when it happens, so you don't have to fly completely blind. If you have some conflict and none of these resources are helping, here's some ways to contact folks who may be able to help."
    • Agree x 6
    • Like x 2
  17. Lissa Lysik'an

    Lissa Lysik'an Dragon-loving Faerie

    This belongs in TCHB, not here.
    • Agree x 1
  18. Beldaran

    Beldaran 70% abuse and 30% ramen

    Notice for back readers: Posts were moved.
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