thread origination derail

Discussion in 'That's So Meta!' started by Athol Magarac, Oct 17, 2018.

  1. rigel

    rigel in a line of late afternoon sun

    try the report system, if you feel as though youre being unfairly targeted?

    of course, be sure to include less complaining because spock wants to be referred to with her pronouns, not ones you've assigned to her.
    • Agree x 3
    • Like x 1
  2. TheMockingCrows

    TheMockingCrows Resident Bisexual Lich

    your mileage may vary but i got no idea how others would react considering there's already a lot of issues communicating with you. but my intention wasn't to be dismissive but was meant to be more of a "I am refusing to take responsibility for anything to do with your well being or mental health because it's not my job to help you with your self worth and self image when i have a full time job managing my own problems" and "I have no idea why you're talking about things unrelated to what I said at me and am not interested in learning why you are doing this thing out of the blue because i wasn't having that conversation with you".
    • Agree x 1
  3. spockandawe

    spockandawe soft and woolen and writhing with curiosity

    What Kathy said. I wasn't even talking about my pronouns in particular, just your reaction to the topic. I've lost track of how many spock-critical things from you I've approved. I'll defend myself from some accusations, but mostly I don't actually.... care what you think about me.

    My broader meaning was that if you can't handle being told you're wrong about something as minor as an individual's pronouns, I don't know how you're going to expect anyone to feel comfortable engaging in debates on loaded social topics, no matter how many times you claim you only want to learn. Your reactions say much, much more clearly that people will be punished for trying to teach.
    • Agree x 13
  4. palindromordnilap

    palindromordnilap Well-Known Member

    I think that is a significant problem with post mod, actually: many people who are on it are held to ridiculous standards. Like, "PM anyone before letting a post be made on their vent thread", "wiggle things that are true but too inflammatory when you say it", "wiggle a rude response to someone who was just as rude if not more"...

    I'm willing to believe the report system would hold people to kind of the same standards if you squint, but no one would really be around to report every single post on this website.
    • Agree x 2
  5. Snitchanon

    Snitchanon What's a mod to a nonbeliever.

    Now I want a judicial review because it means I get to wear a wig.
    • Winner x 18
  6. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    "Kintsugi is based on the premise that nothing anyone can do or say makes it okay to treat them like trash. By logging in, you affirm that you understand this to be the foundational premise of the community."

    I feel like I am being treated like trash. Singled out for it even.

    OMG, I explained why it's hard and stated that I don't even know why it matters so much. Instead of responding to that, or waiting for someone to explain why it's important, you're insisting that I can't handle being told I'm wrong.
  7. Verily

    Verily surprised Xue Yang peddler

    Thank you for articulating this. It’s helpful to know.

    I’m afraid this forum may not be a healthy place for you right now, because people aren’t going to be able to do that for you here. I feel sad saying that, but I think it’s true.

    I know you understand how important it is to be taken seriously when something hurts you. I would say that taking pain seriously is a core value for this community. People expect it, because they believe they should be able to expect it.

    Threads keep going the way they do because people expect to be able to say something if they’re hurt. Other people respond to them because that’s how they show that they’re taking the pain seriously. This isn’t going to stop, because stopping would violate a core value.

    If people held back on discussing their immediate reactions to your posts, you probably would be having an easier time. But they can’t do that, for you or anyone. The only way this could be different is to have an entirely different community.

    I don’t think this forum can meet your needs. That doesn’t mean your needs are wrong. They’re not. It doesn’t mean the forum is wrong either. It’s just an unfortunate situation.
    • Agree x 8
  8. Snitchanon

    Snitchanon What's a mod to a nonbeliever.

    And Yet, Here You Are, treating people really rather badly.
    get a load of this guy cam.jpg
    • Agree x 7
  9. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    I've asked before for a different forum, and that request got ignored. Other than breaks, I'm not leaving unless there is someplace better to go. I didn't let bullies drive me out of getting a highschool diploma and I won't let bullies deny me a helpful resource.

    I think it went pear-shaped because people have trouble seeing me as the person that was hurt instead of me being the abuser. Anyone who does take *my* pain seriously is drowned out.
  10. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    Telling someone that I don't know why it matters so much is akin to treating them badly? How about a rephrase then... Why does it matter so much? Understanding that might make it easier to make an effort in trying to remember.

    I was trying to look up a stupid question to use in an example... someone asks a question because they're genuinely misunderstanding how something works, and gets told off for not understanding what everyone else grasps, so they just stay silent... I came across this instead.

    There is no such thing as a dumb question". A woman, recounting a story about an old man who used to answer all her "stupid questions", explained "Chica, if you ask a question it makes you look stupidfor 5 minutes – but if you don't ask – you stay stupidfor fifty years, so always ask questions in your life".

    A little bit of an anecdote, when asked about my pronouns, I said that he/she/they were acceptable and I disliked non-standard pronouns. (To add an example to that, xir/xie/shir.) Someone decided that since they couldn't remember my pronoun-preference, they used some sort of non-standard neutral, which is the one thing I mentioned not liking. Was I wrong to just let it go instead of going off on them? The vibe I'm getting right now is if I decide my pronouns are کتابش and پایش and people don't use them, it's some sort of grave affront.
  11. Kathy

    Kathy Well-Known Member

    Pronouns matter because a lot of people experience substantial distress at being misgendered, whether they are cis or not. Choosing not to use someone's preferred pronouns after they have corrected you on them is a rejection of their gender identity, and it hurts a lot. It's dehumanizing and shows that you consider your view of their gender more important than their own.
    • Agree x 12
  12. rats

    rats 21 Bright Forge Shatters The Void

    theres a middle ground between going off on someone and just letting it happen. a "i dont use those pronouns i use these pronouns, thanks" will suffice
    much like spock did! imagine that
    • Agree x 8
  13. Snitchanon

    Snitchanon What's a mod to a nonbeliever.

    No, see, Spock can't get anything right, it's why we're having a JUDICIAL REVIEW.
    • Agree x 8
    • Informative x 2
    • Winner x 1
  14. Emma

    Emma Your resident resident

    Quick! Someone photo-edit snitch's avatar to include a wig :P
    • Agree x 5
    • Winner x 2
    • Like x 1
  15. Kathy

    Kathy Well-Known Member

    I'm talking with athol in dm's atm and I can see where a lot of the problem with communication in general is coming from.

    ^^^ this. A lot of people have problems with nonstandard pronouns, for a variety of reasons. You aren't Bad for having trouble with things like xir/xie, I certainly have quite a bit of trouble parsing them myself. If someone asks for a pronoun set you can't use, try asking if you can use they/them instead. If that's a no, I personally deal with it by just addressing by name where possible. It involves sentence restructuring, but it can work.

    "Ash asked me to tell you"; "Ash, how are you feeling"; "Ash thinks that".

    It can result in short sentences, but it's a handy stopgap until you either learn how to use their pronoun set or the interaction ends.
    • Agree x 1
    • Useful x 1
  16. Kathy

    Kathy Well-Known Member

    Both can be true.

    Let's be super clear here: having done abusive things does not mean that the pain you experienced is not also real.

    I believe your actions toward the other forum were unambiguously abusive. I also believe that you were hurt. Both of these things are true at the same time. I do not want to talk about your actions toward the other forum, as they frightened me and made me uncomfortable for a number of reasons. But I can see that you are hurting, and that you are having trouble and are genuinely trying to understand how to do better, so I will help you with that so long as you treat me and others with respect. Part of that is understanding that a lot of us are having genuine trouble understanding what you mean, and that attacking people by accusing them of the same things you are upset about is just making it harder all around to have a productive conversation.

    I believe that you deserve respect in turn, and part of the respect I offer is being honest with you about this.

    So long as you respond to confusion and attempts to understand what you are trying to convey with hostility and insulting language, it will be very difficult to challenge the perception that you are enjoying causing pain to others.
    • Agree x 3
    • Like x 1
  17. mystery nonny

    mystery nonny call me mystery (he/they)

    You keep on bringing up this point so I'mma just say that I think it's pretty obvious that the mods are not, in fact, committing any aggression against you, micro or otherwise.

    If that were the case, they probably would not have let you insisting on peoples pronouns for them go through post mod.

    They did, which tells me more about the content of your wiggled posts than the supposedly unfair treatment by the mod team.

    On a forum like this with a large trans/nb/non-cis population, insisting on incorrect pronouns has a lot of splash damage even to people outside of this population or outside of this thread.

    It hurts a lot of people. The mods still let it through.

    If they wanted to truly silence you, they wouldn't have let it through because of the amount of damage it can, and probably has already, caused.

    So therefore, the mods are not silencing you on nearly the level you think they are.

    In fact, I'd probably say that a post containing racist statements would have less splash damage, because from my perspective this forum seems largely white and non-jewish.

    So, I might not know the content of the wiggled post in question, but I do know and trust the mod team to know what is safe for the forum population to go through and what isn't, because you're not the first pony in this rodeo for them. Read the explanations again, slowly this time, and try to figure it out.

    I'm sorry you feel like that.

    However, the point of that log-in agreement isn't to say that you can't treat others poorly. Because that'd make it a rule and this forum has no rules.

    The point of that agreement is so that we're all on the same page that, no matter who you are or how goddamn fucking vile you are, treating you badly isn't okay.

    Treating you badly is technically allowed, but that doesn't make it okay to treat you badly.

    You will not be removed from the forum for treating people badly though. You may be talked to about it if you do, but you won't be removed. You've been talked to about it. I've been talked to about it. A lot of people on this forum have been talked to about their treatment of others. Some have been put on post mod and others have seen where they were wrong and apologized and fixed their behavior.

    No, you weren't wrong.

    But your response to being misgendered isn't universal.

    Some people laugh it off. Some people kindly correct. Some people are even flattered.

    None of these responses are universal.

    You need to respect the response others do have, whether it's lighthearted and humorous or passive-aggressive, rude, and volatile.

    And you need to respect the pronouns of others when told them. English does have a non-gendered, singular pronoun and it's "they". You use singular "they" all the time:

    "Somebody left their umbrella."

    "If Sally or George got sick, I'd feel bad for them."

    "If I get a call, tell them that I'll call back later."
    • Agree x 12
  18. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    I think you've put the cart before the horse, here. It's not "if post mod, then ridiculous standards". It's "if history is such that it's easy for your posts to be a problem, then maybe post mod".

    Context and history and things like that actually exist. They affect things. If you have a history of doing a specific thing that hurts people, and you do a thing sort-of-vaguely-like-that, they will actually get hurt, because they will interpret it according to their previous experience with you.

    If you have a history of fighting with someone, and you make an insulting-but-true remark about them, that's gonna be a potential problem. If someone else makes the same remark, it might not be a big deal, because there's no such history.

    We're not trying to prevent people from being jerks. We're trying to minimize explosions and trash fires which hit triggers that prevent people from dealing with things. If people are being sorta jerks, but they're not escalating and it's not turning into a big problem, that's not something moderation here is expecting to stop. On the other hand, it's something the community may well try to nudge people away from.
    • Agree x 2
  19. palindromordnilap

    palindromordnilap Well-Known Member

    ... @Athol Magarac, this might be a kinda weird question (and I accidentally unfriended you on Discord which is why I have to say it on the forums), but have you tried taking thiamine supplements? A deficiency is really common in people who get most of their calorie intake from alcohol, and one of the symptoms is memory issues that end up looking to an outsider like delusional thinking. This might be one of the reasons for the miscommunications happening here.
  20. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    I agree with this.

    People get to throw knives at me and I'm not allowed to respond. People claiming that I'm throwing knives at groups is inaccurate, but enough of a talking point where it should be discussed, and they're allowed to at least complain.

    I would also like to add that the conversation-lag it introduces is a PITA, especially on fast-moving threads where the topic might have been decided before the person on post-mod gets to chime in. I notice it more with Pal than Seebs.
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