thread origination derail

Discussion in 'That's So Meta!' started by Athol Magarac, Oct 17, 2018.

  1. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    Kathy was talking a bit about the same thing.

    What is the point of yelling at me until I agree with (group) if changing my opinion has no affect on the context of what I say?

    To tangent, one or more people declared CICO was disordered eating. I think someone from the anti-CICO was brought around to that it's a tool that could be valuable or could be misused. (Tangent again, axes could be used for murder-purposes or chopping wood. I'll refrain from expanding unless asked.) If there were a complete divide on the issue instead of people moving to the middle of the maze, all sorts of nasty things could happen. But if person X was dismissed by CICO-moderates as a CICO-anti and nothing could get through to them even after they came around? Maybe even expanding to "they like the fad-diets that CICO prevents."

    Topic shift

    NOTE: I think I lost some things because I haven't had breakfast yet and I've been up for 6 hours after not eating much yesterday, please poke me if it's something you'd like a response on.

    Topic shift again.

    Discord looks fixed. I'll look into thiamine. I won't automatically fix everything, but it might cut down on problems.
  2. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    Oh, I was just slicing tomatos and remembered something.

    My mom is a teetotaler, so no alcohol-related memory problems unless it's caused by Crohns (somewhat like celiac) even in remission.

    She heard me ask my uncle to bring his knife-sharpening kit next time he came over because hers knife needed some work. (Unspoken, but while her "sharpener" could fix some problems with the edge, it kinda needed some TLC that might mean grinding a few micrometers to create a new edge.) She insisted that I called her knife "crappy" in that conversation. (It is a cheap knife, but that just means it needs a lot of work to keep it in good shape.)
  3. Kathy

    Kathy Well-Known Member

    That ties in to the communication issue we've been talking about, yeah.

    At present I have identified a problem Athol has with presenting theories, thoughts and opinions as fact via word choice. In combination with learned behaviors, problematic information sources, and difficulty with expressing her actual beliefs this results in things looking much, much worse than intended.

    I have looked over the wiggled post referred too earlier and offered my interpretation of it as requested, and also helped brainstorm ways to express how she feels and is thinking without accidentally throwing people under the bus.
    Once she clarified what she had been intending to say, I believe we have mostly workshopped a way to say it clearly and concisely, rather than it being the very contextually loaded negative statement from the original post.
    • Informative x 4
    • Like x 1
  4. Kathy

    Kathy Well-Known Member

    I am unsure what you are saying here - are you saying that your mother does not have any alcohol related memory problems? If she does not drink, that would make sense.
    Are you saying that you do not recall calling the knife crappy in the conversation, or that you did not and she thinks that you did?
  5. prismaticvoid

    prismaticvoid Too Too Abstract

    Okay, so I'm taking you seriously when you say you don't get why pronouns matter to people.
    When you go your whole life (or even just part of it) being called the wrong name and pronouns, finding the set that makes you feel like a person again is...amazing. It is so freeing to figure out that you don't have to just grin and bear the daily feeling that something isn't right. For me, figuring out I was nonbinary happened during a really rough period in my life. Being able to find community in other trans people, especially other nonbinary people, honestly kept me alive.
    Being called "she", or being told I "look female" (even though I know it's true, thanks for the reminder) is a punch in the face. It reminds me that no matter how I dress and act and present myself, most people will never see me as I am.
    I'm sure you didn't mean to hurt me, but you did. I'm sure it just sounded like stating the obvious, but you need to think about why you felt the need to do that.
    Why did you want to justify your misgendering, knowing now that it hurts so much?
    Please, just think about it.
    • Witnessed x 9
  6. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    I did not call her knife "crappy" in that particular conversation and she said I did. If here knife were crappy, I would have suggested replacement instead of having someone who knows a good bit about knives spend time fixing it. I might have complained about how godawful it was before she pulled out the "sharpener" that's more of a honing tool.

    So my mom does the over exaggeration too and it doesn't have a direct correlation to alcohol.
  7. Kathy

    Kathy Well-Known Member

    That sounds like you've learned it from her, and that she's being passive aggressive, petty and gaslighty. I would suggest double checking your posts for signs of that sort of thing and pruning it out before submitting it to the post mod queue, removing that stuff makes it vastly easier to communicate in a productive way.
  8. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    Thanks for the explanation. I'll work on trying to completely and deeply understand it, but what I might achieve is a shallow understanding of "it matter to you even if I don't get it beyond that point." I think you've gotten to the shallow understanding of my context of not understanding why it matters.

    Even the possibility that I was autistic was a context of maybe the fundamental problem with me is something that can't completely be fixed, and especially not without identifying that it's a fundamental part of my nature and not just something I decided to fail at.

    Anecdote time: I accidentally told a TG to talk about getting screened for PCOS because I was reading the signs of a hormone imbalance in a AFAB the same as whatever's going on with her. (Sorry for the lack of detail, but I wasn't up to prying further even if she gave signs that it might be okay.)

    Can you understand that the misgendering is because it's hard to keep track? Hanlon's razor. I'm not sure how much effort I can expend in remembering everyone's pronouns. I think you mentioned that your sig didn't show it before, and it is still hard-to-see. (Left justify on the pronoun part and still centering the trollhunter part might make it more visible, if that's possible.) I'm sorry that it hurt.
    • Like x 1
  9. prismaticvoid

    prismaticvoid Too Too Abstract

    I appreciate the apology. Two things: "transgender" is an adjective, not a noun. Don't call people "transgenders" or "a transgender". In the anecdote you gave, saying "a trans woman" works just fine.
    Secondly, I can accept that you have difficulty remembering pronouns. I have a shit memory, I get it. However, you have been repeatedly corrected about Spock's pronouns and still stubbornly insist on calling her "he". The more you do something like that after being corrected, the more likely people are to read it as intentional, especially given your reaction to being corrected. Try practicing defaulting to "they" if you can't remember.
    • Agree x 5
  10. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    Okay, I'll try to remember Spock is a she, or go more into they even if I think I'm sure about gender.

    A quick question about calling someone a TG, does this apply to writing in the Paradise universe? I kinda don't want to write a character who would break that slang because what makes sense is for that character to not care enough to realize it's a problem if it even is a problem in that universe.
  11. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    Pronouns are hard. I have a heck of a time with them, and my brain has a weird glitch in gender processing that makes it try very hard to get things exactly backwards. Like, if I know someone is trans, and female, my brain's assumption is "ah-hah, so, they're female, but trans, that means they... want to be treated as male and prefer he/him pronouns". And that's exactly wrong. But if you watch my actual interactions with people, you'll note that I hardly-ever misgender anyone I know. Sometimes I do that by avoiding gendered terms. Sometimes I use "they" because I can't remember. And sometimes I just have to stop and go look it up. But the effect is that they don't get hurt.

    And this all seems really weird to me. I have never particularly cared what pronouns people use for me, and for a long time, I thought caring about this was something weird about trans people, until a cis friend mentioned that she also dislikes being read as male. It simply never occurred to me that anyone would care.

    But I don't have to "get" it. I have to act like other people's feelings matter.
    • Agree x 6
    • Like x 1
  12. mystery nonny

    mystery nonny call me mystery (he/they)

    It's fine to use that kind of terminology in fiction, however, given your previous expressed views, I'd be extremely wary that this might be reflecting your actual views.

    But sure, in writing it's generally fine because the only people hurt are fictional.

    I would, however, encourage to look at this hypothetical character and ask yourself "why is this the only way I can think of to display that they don't give a shit about other people's feelings". Both from a standpoint of "am I projecting my actual thoughts onto this character" and one of simple writing advice.
    • Agree x 2
  13. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    Um no, from what I read of the Paradise universe, the common slang is to call someone a TG. It might be a product of its time, but gender/sex mismatches weren't treated the same way they are today. Considering that stories set in 2018 are after everyone in the world knows about the furry thing and normal humans are outnumbered, and the most interesting stories are about the early days where you could run into a Changed but they were a minority... it might be worth it to reboot the universe if anyone else is interested. Basically same type of universe, but everything happened 20 years later than the original Paradise setting, and some social things happened differently because it hit a bit later.

    The story I'm thinking about would mostly be the same whether I write it as happening in the 90's or the 10's. I just need to think about technology slightly.
  14. Re Allyssa

    Re Allyssa Sylph of Heart

    Hey, Athol, I just wanted to make sure that I give you credit and say that I think you're doing very well in handling this pronoun topic.

    You don't understand, so you're asking questions and that is more than okay, it's great! Especially since the way you are phrasing your questions, it sounds like you're trying not to offend, but you need answers for these things.

    I'm starting to talk myself in circles, but I'm impressed with the way you've handled this thus far, and hope that we(all of us) can keep going like this.

    I also liked your apology to PrismaticVoid. Simple and to the point.

    (... Er, if this sounds condescending, I really do apologize and I really don't mean it that way. I just know that this has been something that you've struggled with, so I wanted to make sure that I give you credit where credit is due.)
    • Agree x 3
    • Like x 1
  15. mystery nonny

    mystery nonny call me mystery (he/they)

    I was not aware of what the Paradise universe even was until nowish, so I do apologize for assuming that the terminology of "a TG" may have been coming from your own place rather than being already established in-universe.

    As I said though, speaking in fictional universes, it's fine because if anyone does get hurt, they're a fictional being. You seem to understand now and why "a TG" is offensive and plain inaccurate for usage irl, so that's great!
    • Agree x 2
  16. seebs

    seebs Benevolent Dictator

    This doesn't appear to be true. Like, "a transgender" does not occur in the things I'm seeing.

    1. Patricia was the first transgendered fur anyone knew of who had gotten pregnant.

    2. People always reacted more strongly to transgendered furs than they did to their own changes, oddly enough.

    3. "Them? Oh, transgendered. They're a vocal group out all proportion to their size, frankly. Well, since the numbers are doubling every year, there'd be... hmm..."

    4. Something like this had happened to the transgendered last year, after Tall Tales Con. What had begun at the Convention, with strangers now perceiving their real gender, had spread to all the others over the course of the year.

    5. Among the furries, two of them were transgendered. One in each direction.​

    Of these, 1/2/5 are all clearly adjectival usage. #3 is ambiguous linguistically. Consider what happens if you substitute "red-haired". "Them? Oh, red-haired." That is still an adjective, because English sometimes allows you to substitute an adjective for a noun. Same with #4. You could do the same thing with "tall", for that matter:

    "They keep bumping into the ceiling on that stairwell."

    "They? Oh, tall."
    It's not very idiomatic, but it happens. How much people will find this rude or not-rude can vary with the social group or adjective in question. But the general usage is consistently adjectives; we don't see someone called "a transgender" or "a transgendered", we see people described as "the first transgendered fur [...]", or "were transgendered", which is still an adjectival usage. If it were a noun, it'd have to be a plural form, because "two of them were ..."; you can't say "two of them were cat", you have to say "two of them were cats" if you're using a noun.

    So I don't think the hypothetical matters, because the first sample of writing I found that used a related word at all seemed to use it the way everyone else does.
    • Agree x 4
    • Informative x 1
  17. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    I have the same sort of problem except I'm at the step where it's weird and only just realizing that other people have different feelings about the matter and could get hurt by it.
  18. Athol Magarac

    Athol Magarac I prefer reading posts without a lot of topics.

    It's itchy as all getouts because the first reaction is to find it condescending. But I try to approach things from "they're trying to be nice" first without getting a riled up about the offense.
  19. applechime

    applechime "well, you know, a very — a very crunchy person."

    i read some of that tvtropes page and the characters called "TG" don't seem trans so much as permanently biologically genderbent. so that's not really comparable to calling Real Human Beans "TG"
    • Agree x 2
  20. prismaticvoid

    prismaticvoid Too Too Abstract

    Also, I appreciate your apology to me, but you misgendered me once. Spock deserves substantially more apologies than I do, because your misgendering of her has been consistent and you have responded very belligerently when corrected. I'm glad you acknowledged that you plan to do better with her pronouns, but an apology is very much still in order.
    • Agree x 3
    • Like x 1
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