also: a lot of people in ao3's undertale section don't get the difference between pairing tags (/) and general character dynamic tags (&) like, they use / for their fics and then explicitly say in the tags that the characters are just friends and just... why? both / and & exist, and have separate meanings for a reason, dammit! stop fucking up the sorting system!
Spoiler: Actually, about that fic Did you catch the fun detail about it not necessarily being the first time? Because Papyrus mentioned the last few times Sans promised to stop. Multiple times. An ongoing pattern. But vweh, Sans doesn't mean it that much, he just loves his brother sooooo muuuuuch. I want to stick that fic's Sans and Flowey in a cage match and let them dust each other, except I know it would just make Papyrus even more sad than living with them apparently makes him. Insert Undyne-style ranting about how he's too soft and nice and friendship-seeking for his own damn good.
Spoiler yeah, i caught that. it and many other things about this fic made me very confused, at the start, about who the bad guy was supposed to be and who would save pap from who. the author did later outright say that sans was the good guy eventually but until then and a bit after that, i was hoping for a papflowey ending with redemption and stuff. and yeah, i'm definitely up for that solution to the problem. might wanna add undyne and alphys to it too, since they also were assholes to pap - maybe not as overt assholes as sans and flowey but still... pap should, like, run away with metatton or something. maybe he'll be nicer.
Spoiler That fic is a jenga pile of people being assholes, and thanks to that poorly-placed physical abuse warning, I'm really, really unable to tell which parts are deliberate and which parts are oversights on the author's part. So I might continue reading it later out of a morbid popcorn.gif to see just where they're going... But only maybe. Papyrus and Mettaton, running away to be television stars forever... there's a possible solution. At least Mettaton doesn't pretend to he's not almost completely self-absorbed, and he's willing to throw compliments at people as readily as his insults. :')
Spoiler yeah. i'm particularly bothered by how people are lying to pap 'cause they think he can't handle the truth. like, i know it's canon but something about how this fic uses it makes those people all seem like colossal assholes. and it clashes really badly with sans being into papyrus. like, seriously, sans wants to date pap and have sex with him, and yet also thinks he's an innocent that he has to hide the truth from? seriously? you can't have it both ways, sans. at least not if you're supposed to be the good guy. yep. :D:D:D and mettaton seems pretty unconnected to the drama so far, so he won't be coming in with assumptions picked up from sans and undyne.
Spoiler Oooh, that, I've got a theory for. There's a trend with fic writers breaking up canonical pairings to get their preferred ship in, but feeling like they need to justify it somehow. Some go for sad dramas, making the other partner of the canon pairing abusive for the sake of a heroic new lover coming to the rescue. Some make the other partner actually in love with someone else, so it ends amicably with little mention, so they can be tabled as optional supporting cast. And some go with the solution of the other partner realizing how cute and perfect the author's intended couple is, squeeing and shipping and wingmanning for them. As though it's uncomfortable to depict characters concluding that things aren't working out; people being alone is saaaaaaaad, they have to be harmful or alternatively in love or a shipper. So them being abrasive and unkind in those obvious ways, I think, is so it's easy for the reader to agree that it makes sense Papyrus would be comforted by Flowey's ~truthfulness~. I was nodding along to it for a bit, though the way it kept going became offputting. But OH BOY, that tangled fucking incest of the simultaneous pseudoparent and brother, the way he'd go from resenting Papyrus for not appreciating ~all he did for his bro~ and feeling sooooooo hurt that Papyrus was shunning his (actually somewhat sexual) embrace. Creeeepy. Especially creepy in that I don't know if it's meant to be creepy. :D That too!
Spoiler yeah, that's probably it. but it really affects how i look at the stuff that actually happens in canon too, as well as the extra asshole stuff added in the fic. 'cause, like, yeah, sure, in canon, sans isn't this big an asshole but he and undyne do lie to papyrus to preserve his innocence and well... it's something that pap has reason to be upset about. exactly! and i'm bothered 'cause it feels like the author might not be taking pap's objections to sans' actions entirely seriously. like they think that 'cause sans loves pap and has good intentions and has started trying to improve, pap objecting to what sans does is just him being manipulated by the Evil Flower Boyfriend, not him bringing up legitimate concerns.
-gets excited because there was an email about my fics- -it was someone favoriting something i wrote years ago and have no intent to continue despite people being like please continue- -wants to nuke the fic out of spite-
Having sex with a guy who looks exactly like your dead boyfriend and is self-admittedly taking advantage of the situation isn't "moving on". ETA: Okay, the authors are really heavily insisting out-of-fic that this isn't in any way healthy, but the "moving on" comment is apparently intended to be taken at face value. :/
There's a big Danganronpa longfic (like 130k+) that is tagged as both Naegi/Komaeda and Naegi & Komaeda; iirc, it was originally tagged as only /. Somewhere between a third of the way and half of the way through, the author says that they previously didn't understand the distinction and that they only were leaving the Naegi/Komaeda tag on because "some people are tracking this story through it." Which is like... just... get an ao3 account... and subscribe to the fic that way?? because this fic reads pretty differently if you're under the impression that their relationship is going to turn romantic at some point ...author should at least edit the first chapter's notes to say that it's meant to be &, so you don't go half the story being misinformed maybe i'll suggest that...? ...DR tangent aside, i agree that i've seen that behavior in the undertale section, and also in the gravity falls section, and every time it's just like... please... just use &....
Aaaargh, yes. I keep getting hit with it the other way around, too- if I'm in the Sans & Papyrus tag, I shouldn't keep seeing fontcest because & is for platonic relationships. Also, which fic is this? Because leaving aside my seething hatred of fontcest in general, I have a lot of ranty opinions about Sans characterization.
Yeah, okay, I'm just... not going to get involved there, people can do what they want in their own fic and the fact that it's fontcest at all means I'm probably not going to see eye to eye with them, but I am going to do a "little" ranting about Sans and Papyrus. Spoiler: Lots of tl;dr, Neutral Endings mentioned So, there is a whole recurring theme in Undertale fandom about Sans being really overprotective of Papyrus and keeping lots of secrets from him for his own good. I feel that the latter is partially true but taken out of context, and the former is flat-out wrong. To start with, Sans doesn't try to hold Papyrus back from doing things. He respects Papyrus' choices and doesn't try to stop him from making them. We see him repeatedly following along and encouraging his brother's decisions, even when it involves interacting with the Fallen Child, who Sans knows is potentially very dangerous. Even if you're in a pretty dusty timeline, he doesn't try to push him away from you or actively intervene, he just makes one brief threat about how you'll have a bad time if you keep going down this path, which is... not exactly an unreasonable response to a serial murderer. He certainly doesn't go around threatening people for getting close to his brother. I mean for fuck's sake, when it comes to Papyrus' love life, Sans made no objections to someone he thought might possibly cause the Apocalypse coming into their home and dating him. That is not the act of a man preparing to reinterpret a 'shotgun dad' role with Gaster Blasters. Sans doesn't seem to see his brother as physically weak- yes, he tells you that "he's not dangerous, even if he tries to be", but the keyword there is dangerous. He doesn't say anything about Papyrus' skill, just that he's not a danger to you, which is absolutely correct: Papyrus is the only battle in which you flat-out cannot die. There's a difference between not wanting to hurt someone and not being a capable fighter, Sans is indicating the former. He's not the one keeping Papyrus out of the Guard, either. That's Undyne, and while it's entirely possible she could have spoken about it to him, she makes absolutely no indication that Sans was ever actually involved in making that decision. Not emotionally weak, either- sure, he goes out of his way to cheer him up and provide emotional support, but there's also a fair amount of friendly teasing and banter. It doesn't read as coddling someone, just acting like a caring family member. Point is, Sans doesn't try to hide Papyrus away from the world, control his life, or keep him from doing things he's capable of. Overall, I'd say that Sans has a pretty good idea of his brother's capabilities, and trusts him to handle anything that falls within them, like the adult he is. The things he considers outside his capabilities seems to consist of reset-related stuff, which isn't really something most people have any way of dealing with. Even Sans himself has little to no power over what's going on there, so since neither of them can do anything he doesn't act at all. I'm sure he'd like to protect Papyrus from Flowey and/or the Fallen Child if he had the ability to do so, but given that they're both very powerful people who can and have killed him in the past, that's a fairly reasonable concern. Now, Sans absolutely does keep secrets from Papyrus, but what people seem to overlook a lot is that he's keeping secrets from him in the context of the resets. Assuming Sans has no way to somehow share his continued awareness that time is looping- and it doesn't seem like he does- anything he tells someone about his problems or the threats they're facing is just going to be forgotten next timeline. He can explain it to them every time, but how long does that go on for before it starts to feel really futile and depressing? It seems likely to me that Sans has told his brother all about what's going on in past timelines, and just eventually stopped because it wasn't helping anything long-term. It's also not just limited to Papyrus- "Sans never tells anybody anything", keyword being anybody. There's no point telling anyone who won't remember once things reset, and the only people who do aren't ones he trusts. If anything, Papyrus seems to know more about his brother's weird abilities than anyone else does, he just doesn't know the full extent of things. The one big point people tend to bring out is the King Papyrus ending, and the way Sans keeps telling him everyone who died is 'on vacation'. This is Sans flat-out lying to Papyrus to keep him from feeling bad- but again, consider the context of the resets. In the normal course of events, when someone dies their loved ones grieve and then, ideally, move on, healing and becoming stronger for the experience. There's pain but it passes with time, and it's more beneficial for them to come to terms with things than be kept in the dark. The resets take that from them. There's not enough time before the loop begins again for people to truly heal and grow, all they get is the pain of a fresh loss over and over again. Depending on how fast the next timeline comes, they might not even have time to hold a funeral before suddenly it all never happened. It's not terribly healthy, but not wanting to put someone through any more pain than they have to is understandable. If it were a matter of people actually staying dead, I'm sure Sans would tell him- even in some other neutral timelines, it seems like he has. But when he's in a position of incredible stress already, and they're going to be coming back soon anyway? That doesn't read to me as someone being manipulatively possessive, or lacking faith that they can handle grief. Just as someone very tired, who'd like to spare his loved ones from as much pain as he can, at least for a little while.
i appreciate the meta. :D:D:D it makes sense and really helps clarify some stuff about sans' behaviour.
So basically, Homura situation? "I could say something, but I already know it never helps, so why bother."
@Scheherazade, that's really insightful. Thank you for writing it up. Also, you have a way with words and your username seems quite appropriate.
Spoiler: Agreement and followup re: Sans and fanon There are a lot of things that people do with Sans that utterly bewilder me. - Violent, overprotective big bro Sans attacks the player in only one circumstance, in order to prevent the literal end of the world. Anything short of that, he doesn't. If you kill Papyrus, he won't show up for any of his joke stuff, because he'll be busy stalking you with his hoodie up, glaring at you from the shadows (see: flavor text in the Shyren battle)... but unless it's a geno run, he'll briefly yell at you in the judgement hall and then let you pass. If you geno up to Papyrus, spare him, and then kill everyone else you meet, Sans is still willing to joke around with you, and gives you a bit of scolding for it near the end. If you tell Sans that Papyrus is lame, he chides you with "sarcasm isn't funny" and otherwise lets it slide. - Remembering other timelines There's no evidence that Sans has any more true recollection of other timelines than other monsters do; only Flowey and the player character do. In his geno battle, he says this: What he has is scientific awareness of their existence, and (at least after a true/soulless pacifist end) a way of giving himself reports/photographs. So where other monsters might brush off the deja vu and odd echoes, Sans knows to pay attention to them. My headcanon about the King Papyrus timeline, when Papyrus asks about Undyne and the others, is that Sans says something like "they're on vacation, they'll be back before you know it." He's so sure that the timeline is going to loop without memories or changes that he believes there's no sense in letting others know how futile things are.
I'm also getting a bit of Rika Furude in there for similar reasons, as well as believing fully in Papyrus for his strengths and kindness but also being aware that it's not enough and it's not going to matter in the face of a reset.
Aw, thanks guys. For what it's worth, I like the idea that, while he usually can't remember, Sans does get the occasional really tiny fragment of memory now and then, just a random two seconds or so from any part of the last timeline, with no real control over what he gets. Because even people who don't seem to know the resets are happening appear to get the occasional moment of deja vu, so it's not too farfetched that someone aware of the situation could eventually train themselves to be more aware of those moments and what they mean. The thing is that once he has them he doesn't forget again, and Flowey's been resetting for so damn long by the time the game starts, that even those really tiny little bits of memory add up over the years to a really long time. In the end, though, it's still no substitute for the ability to actually remember things clearly, like Determined people can. To compare, Flowey and the Fallen Child remember past timelines like you remember what happened yesterday. Sans remembers past timelines like you remember what happened in that weird dream you had ten years ago. But yeah, I think a lot of Sans' behavior gets interpreted without considering the situation he's in: he does have some pretty unhealthy behaviors, but they all seem to be responses to things that are happening to him, things which he can't avoid and can't prevent. They're unhealthy coping mechanisms that were needed to survive in a bad situation, not just him being an asshole for the fun of it. It's possible for him to harm someone, but it would be unintentional and result in him trying to fix, not be a deliberately malicious thing. Same goes for Frisk, Flowey, and Chara, in varying ways- all of the reset-aware characters are heavily influenced by the fact of the resets, and they need to be taken into account.
